Strategy Gameplan

C

Chad W. Getz FCSH

Joined
Jul 20, 2000
Messages
112
The recent Sayoc Kali thread gave me an idea. The question did make sense in origin...not the drill part, but, the "what is the difference" part. For myself, at 6'0" and 200 lbs., I have no problem with a strategy that involves me being close to my opponent, but other arts, or a 4'10" under 100 lbs. wet, skinny, frail MAists probably wouldn't like to be there. What are the differences of some of the strategy game plans of the styles/systems or practicioners here on the board? For instance, one might be to close the gap and use "controlling" techniqes to disarm, destroy, than takedown, or to strike from outside, etc., etc. What makes Doce Pares different from Modern Arnis or what makes Dave Fulton's style different from my syle sort of question. Not better, but different as in the strategies or game plan.

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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com

[This message has been edited by Chad W. Getz FCSH (edited 11-28-2000).]
 
This is an interesting question. Inayan Serrada was developed by GM Angel Cabales, under five and half feet tall and about 130 pounds I think, and Mangisursuro Mike Inay, about 6 feet and 200 pounds. The foundational concept is to close on the opponent, block his attack inside its arc of maximum power, and counter attack. This is effective for small fighters because the plan is to smother an attack before ti reaches full power. You close, but not to trapping range. It is an interesting part of Serrada that you are always trying to smother the weapon hand while staying out of striking range of the free hand. Serrada blocks are primarily checks by the free hand with the weapon in a guard position in case the enemy's weapon attempts to go around the check with a witik motion.

I train with a Doce Pares student, and there are more similarities than differences. I have found this to be true of most FMA. Similar concepts for similar ranges.
 
I train in pekiti-tirsia. I don't exactly get to spar a lot as myself and one training partner are all I have and he is a dentist and is afraid of damaging the money hand (which he has done while sparring a few times). Since P-T tends to be a really up close and in your face system, I like to close with the attacker and engage, trying to put pressure on them. Sometimes I have to change tactics due to my opponents' size and skill ( I stand 5'11" and 165 lbs). On the street,however, it is a different story. I am an LEO and I tend to get right in the BG's face, quickly and without hesitation. Turn on the extreme aggression mode and when you have secured the BG, turn it off. I've had no problems in the seven years I've been an officer (knock on wood). But if faced with a much larger opponent I will not, nor should anyone else, allow pride to determine your strategy. If hit and run is what it takes to win, DO IT!

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Ken
 
Regardless of the style or the size/structure of the practitioner I think the strategy should be to close the gap and control the attacker. Obviously this may be more difficult for smaller people than larger people but why should the strategy be different? I am about average size or slightly smaller and I have found that I am more effective if I close the gap and begin to strike and manipulate as quickly as possible. I have had more luck doing this with larger "partners" than if I try to keep the distance and fight. I have studied a variety of arts and all of them taught to move into the attacker either by going straight in or to "zone" to the outside. By trying to keep the distance we are giving the attacker the same advantage as we have. If this attacker is bigger or faster they just might have more of an advantage.

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STEVE
 
Strategy is probably gonna vary a lot more depending upon the situation and the fighter's build than a particular style of FMA.

In stick against knife, the strategy depends upon whether you've got the stick or the knife. The one with a stick is gonna wanna stay out at largo whereas the one with a knife is gonna wanna close the gap.

Single stick, double stick, or espada y daga, even against a similarly armed opponent all vary.

Should one disarm an opponent with a stick, one will likely wanna get back out to largo and maximize the advantage.

Professor Remy Presas' Modern Arnis incorporates all four ranges: largo, medio, corto and dumog. Stick, blade and empty hands against stick, blade and empty hands. Flow and footwork are things Professor emphasizes most. An instructor (Manaois/SOG/Lameco) I get to occasionally train with, told me that good footwork and fair technique will beat good technique and fair footwork EVERY time.

Me being a skinny, high metabolism critter with long arms, if I've got a stick, I'm gonna play a defensive game out at largo.


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Ken Grubb
Lacey, WA, USA
 
<Flow and footwork are things Professor emphasizes most.>

Actually, I'm suprised to here this. When I have seen the Prof. there wasn't alot of foot work. This is in line with his Balintawak training, which is a toe2toe style. Hard blocking, counters and traps/checks, not a lot of footwork. Ancoing Bacon, the founder of the style was a little just a little guy.

Vince
 
Bukidnon,

Grandmasters don't have to move.

I think they feel the stick or blade, and just will it into missing them. Or maybe they're really moving extremely fast, but only slow down so mortals like me can see 'em now and again. Or maybe it's simply camouflage because GMs are old men and they wanna just fit in with everyone else, so they move like old men. All speculation by me, of course.

But one thing is certain, if one learns footwork from watching GMs, in any style, one will quickly get hit. Watch the Guros and Punong Guros partnered with GMs. Those same Guros and PGs are happy to teach the merits of footwork by catching one flatfooted.

I will grant that Modern Arnis doesn't have the diverse footwork of SOG that comes from Ilustrisimo and Caballero. For this reason, it's worthwhile, IMHO, to train with FMA/IMA practitioners from other styles now and again. Little gaps fill in and holes open up.


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Ken Grubb
Lacey, WA, USA
 
kgrubb,

When I say there wasn't alot foot work by the Prof., I mean in modern arnis not just him. It wasn't really stressed, it was more about block, counter and setups. Now I'm no expert in modern arnis and my training it goes back a few years (it was the first MA I studied) so I maybe mistaken or things may have changed.

Chad,

There are actually several 'flavors' of Balintawak all having there origins in Bacon method. All really on a hard force to force blocking and standing toe2toe with you opponent using baits, traps, and counters.
The method I was exposed to there were several interesting rules:
- no twirlig, the stick either is blocking or hitting
- no roof blocks or pluma (wing block), the tip of the stick always up for blocking (no point down low inside sweeps)
- weight is on the foot of the side the stick is on. e.g. (assume righthanded) in the open position weight is on the right foot, in the closed position weight on the left. This is regardless of the lead (right or left)

Weird huh?

Superior position is gained by leaning as opposed to footwork as well as fast hands. A quick example with you (A)and a partner (B)

-go mismatch leads in medio (A in boxers lead stick in righthand) both in closed poition.
-B delievers a diagonal back hand (#4 in Balintawak)
-A blocks stick up, with the live hand A monitors the stick between thumb and finger (don't grab)
-A draws stick back (in open position), leans back puting weight on the rear foot, and gives a verticle strike to the face with tip of the stick.

In this example:
1. A is monitoring B stick so he can't use it to block.
2. Because of the mismatched lead and A is leaning back, B can't block or parry A's stick hand yet A can still hit because of he uses the sticks reach.
3. B can obviously move in then a game of counter/recounter is played.

My exposure to Balintawak was limited so I don't claim expertise. I'm Kali Illustrisimo player, but I do use the leaning trick in sparring.

(WOW long post)

Regards

Vince
 
The system in which I originally trained was a close quarter one. Alot of live hand useage and emhasis on deflections rather than blocks. It was taught to let the guy move into you rather than move into the guy.

When I started fighting on a regular basis(maybe 16-20 fights a week), I started to work my long range alot. I have no formal Pekiti Tirsia training, but from some video tapes I think this is where alot of my long range material came from, and that was mostly from Eric Knaus, and some influence from GT Leo Gaje Jr., and Tuhon Bill McGrath. The way in which I play and all of us in Full Contact Hawaii play is to pick someone apart at long range with hand shots, knees shots, foot/toe smash, and face, and if that doesn't go as planned, close the gap to control at close range with knees, punyos, and clinching techniques, also with the capability to fight on the ground with and without weapons. A strong clinch game has developed and an interesting strategy of accepting and working with and against the close has also been developed because of the training and mostly the fights. The structure of the system is based more around an outline rather than exact categories of techniques, giving each individual the understanding of exactly what happens where, and the freedom to grow and develop his/her strengths and know their weakness', where progressive isolated sparring tactics are used. Single stick, Stick and dagger, Double Stick, Short and Long Staff, knife, and empty hands are the main areas of training with options of the individual to develop within the other areas at their want or need. These areas are sparred hard and are a big part of the progression of the fighters. One of the biggest skills that have been developed without much training in the beginning was evasion.

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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com
 
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