Stronger Chinook/Manix pivot

STR said:
What more testing besides the lock needs to be done on a knife like that? I just don't see it needing to be destroyed to gain any insight there.

My simple, definitely non-expert reply would be that you need to test to destruction so that you know where the "destruction" point is. It would be nice, as a user, to know that the point of destruction is (slightly versus significantly) higher than the expectly level of stress induced by the expected uses.

David
 
Again I just don't agree with that when it comes to handmade knives . Every handmade knife is different. Every truly hand made knife I should say. I'm not talking about machine made stuff stamped out by someone with the latest and greatest technology.

Even two same knives from the same pattern won't be exactly alike in handmades so the only way to really know the destruction point of any one knife would be to destroy each and every one you made.

Maybe Chris Reeve can make two or 5000 that are virtually identical but he is in the minority in my experience. Most of us make a knife that looks the same but you would notice distinct differences pretty easily up close. One scale for example could rarely be fitted to another as a perfect fit and so on. I try real hard to keep the ones I make pretty much the same so that if say a screw got lost and needed replaced I could send one out because I know how long it needs to be cut to fit. But a blade replacement or scale replacement would require the knife be sent to me. I can't just stamp out another one and mail it to you. Its hand made and unique.

No two hand mades are exactly alike in form or function. I know few knife makers that test for destruction routinely. Leave that to the guys that have the money to pay for testing in the commercial market place. Most of us guys making our own knives are too poor to be wasting material like that. Most are using patterns long established in knife making anyway so further testing is redundant.

We shoot for an ideal and try to reach that and every now and then one turns out better than another. Some go together like a dream and just flow and almost put themselves together for you while others fight you the whole way to fruition. That is the nature of a handmade knife vs a commercial made machined knife stamped out in mass quantities.

In over twenty years making folders I've never had anyone ask me for the results of my 'destruction' tests before buying one. I just don't see that as a real need and I don't think most buyers do either for most hand mades.

The guys like Busse, Strider, Emerson and Reeve started this thought process and it is a snake that will bite them. I think ego is to blame as it is really just to set themselves apart from the rest of us as the bigger better deal. Let em play that game. I won't participate in it. Most guys I know respect the knife they buy as more than a tool but a work or art and a friend that you can trust to do one thing. Cut reliably. Mine do that no further tests needed.
 
STR, I think you are right, that each knife should be tested according to the environment it is supposed to perform. And of course, a gent's folder (a knife that by definition should be used to open letters, peel an apple or an orange aso) will fail if you abuse it. I think it's just common sense and you don't have to put it into a vise and kick it with the hammer to prove you're right (I don't imply in any way that Cliff would do such thing to the forementioned folder, it was just for the sake of example). Moreover, there are some handmade folders I wouldn't even dare to test in a destructive manner (take Montejano's knives that are constantly showing to the Gallery section).
However, we're talking here about the Chinook and the Manix, two knives that are known for their sturdiness, two knives that could be abused (and the user might be tempted to abuse them). They are production folders and Cliff, with his tests is just telling us how reliable those knives can be, under what circumstances.
 
STR said:
Even two same knives from the same pattern won't be exactly alike in handmades so the only way to really know the destruction point of any one knife would be to destroy each and every one you made.
The performance variation should be slight, of course they won't be exact, even productions are not exactly alike, however you should quickly bound expected performance with a few tests, otherwise it means your QC is really low.

Most are using patterns long established in knife making anyway so further testing is redundant.
You don't do destructive testing just to see where the blade breaks, you do it to see how it breaks, plus to confirm aspects like heat treatment which can't be evaluated any other way.

I gave my brother a SOG folder awhile ago, almost instantly he came back to me with the clip mangled. The knife got caught up and put a lot of stress on the clip which he didn't notice while he was working.

Now as a maker you have to ask yourself here what is th amount of strength you want in the clip, but also what do you want to break, the clip, the screws, the handle, the guys pants, etc. .

Alvin Johnson recently made a small paring knife out of 1095 for me, completely hand made, and by hand made I mean with actual hand tools, he even made his knife grinder himself out of the motor of a washing machine.

He also broke a piece of the 1095 he heat treated and sent it to me so he could show me the grain structure, he breaks his steel all the time to check the heat treatment and steel quality. It was the same piece the knife was ground out of.

Not only do you have to examine your own heat treatment, but you would also want to do it with each large batch of steel to check for variations there. In this case you would not need to do a full blade grind, just a rough primary and an edge.

It is not just the steel either, lets assume you make a knife with a lot of wood inlays, or a small folder so you do a extended corrosion soak to see what happens to the internals and the wood.

Now you could ask why would you do this, isn't it abusive, what kind of user would do this to a knife, maybe not intentionally, but it isn't difficult to see how this could happen accidentally plus just poor luck with weather.

Accidents will happen on regular use to hard use knives, by hard use I don't simple mean choppers either, but simply knives which are not used with extreme care, the kind that will cut used and possibly dirty materials.

Not to mention problems with method & manufacturing, there was an issue with Sebenza's awhile back with blades breaking because of thumb studs overstressing the blades which caused them to fail under really low stress, same sample destructive testing would have caught this readily.

I have loaned axes to carpenter friends for example and they will hit nails on a semi-regular basis, not every day, but get the axe back after a month and it has a couple of nail notches. Get a knife back and it has nicks in the edge from hitting a staple in a box, or running across some poly or stryofoam on the form and running over a nail.

Back to Alvin, he makes pure cutting tools, full hardness steels on light stock (1/16") with full hollow grinds and edges which run to the spine, so <10 degrees per side. Awhile back one of his knives got the edge damaged cutting I think some kind of hard poly when the guy was removing a window.

Alvin played with his heat treatment, didn't adjust the hardness down, went to multiple tempers and gave the guy another blade to see if the toughness was there, it was.

Now as for Busse and other manufacturers who make extreme use knives, they are making general use tools, blades which are expected to see heavy prying and hammering, you need to know where these knives fail and how they because their scope of work includes that which could damage them.

-Cliff
 
I absolutely love my chinook II, and I'm glad to hear all these great things about it, and the company that makes it. Makes me proud to own one (will probably buy another :D )
 
Thanx for the kind words, appreciate.

A wise Naval architect friend of mine, Dick Newick taught me that you must "exceed the limits to find them".

As a responsible PRODUCTION knife manufacturer, we feel it is our responsibility to ensure the reliability and safety of our products. We regularly destroy them to make sure that they are meeting our in-house safety specs.

sal

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The entire "business chain" from; raw materials, manufacturing, marketing, selling, distributing, shipping, warrantees, insurance, credit, etc. ALL EXISTS to service the ELU (End Line User). Remove the ELU from the equation and the entire business chain falls like a house of cards. We all work for you!
 
I agree on some points but not on others. Primarily I agree that the commercial knives and especially specialty knives should be tested.

But as for destroying good knives just for the sake of destroying them. I mean come on. I bought a fiberglass axe handle a while back. It came with a "lifetime warranty" stated as "unbreakable" and then I accidentally backed over it with my Pinzgauer. The thing had been sitting slightly elevated on a bank. Guess what? It broke.

My point is that anything can be broken if you try hard enough. If I ever want to see one of my folders destroyed I can give it to my son. I don't need to send it off to Cliff.

Finally I am not saying that what you do is unnecessary Cliff. I just sometimes question the extent and reasononing behind some of your testing methods and why you destroy so many in tests where the outcome is very predictable. The Dozier Agent tip break is just one example I have seen. Anyone familiar with D2 would have seen that coming in that test.
 
To get back on topic though.

I just got my new Chinook in the mail this morning. WOW> Now thats a tank of a folder. I love it. I have a feeling I'm going to be retiring all my other EDC knives for some time. This thing is great Sal!

I like everything about it. I see no reason to change what is already as close to perfection as you could ask for. This knife will certainly stand up to anything I'll ever ask of it. The Golden Colorado U.S.A. Earth on the back of the tang is a great touch of class to this already classy folder.

Great job on this one. I can't imagine it fitting my large hands better. I have always wanted a knife about the size and heft of my old Buck 110 but slimmer and with a pocket clip instead of a sheath. This is better than I imagined. For years I'd imagined installing a clip on my 110 and a thumb stud but it wouldn't compare to this. Thank you Mr. Keating.
 
STR said:
My point is that anything can be broken if you try hard enough.
It isn't that it breaks, but rather what it takes, and how it fails when it does go. Just like you can cut with any knife, some do it better than others.

Yes lots of the results are fairly obvious if you have used the knives, not everyone is as experienced.

-Cliff
 
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