Strop?

[Magnaminous_G]

What you use isn't as important as how you use it. Once you understand the basic principles behind getting things sharp, you can take it as far as you want. I used to get downright silly. These days, I am happy with a good working edge. Thanks for mentioning me Mag-G! I am flattered.

You make beautiful knives, and the one sharpening video you have on YouTube helped me a lot. You should make more!

Tin oxide apparently is at ~ 6-7 on the Moh's scale of hardness (some knife steels are in the same range), and therefore is a lot less hard than chromium oxide (~ 8.5 Moh's). As a rouge/buffing compound used on powered buffing wheels, it might polish (some) steel OK. But, I'd think it'd be pretty slow-working by hand on a strop, for a hardened knife steel.

Got it. Thanks! That confirms what I've seen: I haven't seen a lot of hand sharpeners using it, but I have seen it at knife makers shops and at factories on buffing wheels.

 

[stitchawl]

What you use isn't as important as how you use it.

I think this may be a bit of an overstatement, yes? And can lead beginners into unsound waters.

Obviously, sound technique is vital to good results. But you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear... You need to use proper tools to get desired results. No matter how sound your skill at sharpening, you are NOT going to get the same edge using a cement block as a fine waterstone. No one will deny that a good cutting edge can be obtained using cement. It's just not AS good as it could be using the same technique with a better stone. We've all been able to shave hair after sharpening with a brick... but would you want your barber to shave you after sharpening his razor with that same brick?


Stitchawl

 

[HeavyHanded]

The difference I'd like to know is more about the substrate than the yes/no of using compound. I know that good compound plus good technique equals a better edge, but I'd like to see what difference there will be using something like MDF vs firm leather as the base for the compound.

AHhh, I still can't speak to the MDF but have used balsa, maple, uncoated card stock wrapped around a stone, firm leather, felt, sheet rubber, gasket material, newspaper - wet and dry, cork, etc. Using the same abrasive there are still some variables due to the vehicle (be it wax, grease, water-based, none) interacting differently with the backing. In general the firmer backings will impart a slightly toothier edge at least at first. It doesn't take long for the particles to get fractured or worked into the backing and then the characteristics start to change. Also, any steel removed will change how it polishes as well. Pretty sure you'd still need a SEM at better than 2000x to see subtle differences - with an optical microscope you won't see effects in the fraction of a micron range.

I generally use a fingernail test - how deep of an indentation can I make with a fingernail dragged across my "strop". I imagine hardened leather would be in the neighborhood of MDF, craft store scraps of dyed leather, even the hard stuff, will be a bit softer. After that it comes down to surface texture and how well it takes to the abrasive vehicle.

That's understandable. Plain leather doesn't do more than any other 'plain' base. The difference comes with whose skin is being used! High quality, properly cased horsehide has a completely different feel to it than even properly cased cowhide. You can feel the hide grabbing the edge to smooth it out!! It doesn't just 'slide' over the surface. I can't begin to explain properly, but the difference is amazing. Used once and you'd never look back...

Stitchawl

I've done a fair amount of reading re stropping on plain leather but have yet to really grasp what's going on. Is the silica polishing the edge, or does it increase friction at the the very apex and use the plastic properties of the metal to draw the edge thinner? It doesn't sound plausible initially, but when you're realize the scale you're working at...

 

[Magnaminous_G]

What you use isn't as important as how you use it.

I think this may be a bit of an overstatement, yes? And can lead beginners into unsound waters.

I actually think that statement by Rick is the best advice you could possibly give to a beginner. Too many beginners (in anything: knives, sharpening, hunting, sports, etc.) believe that if they just had the same gear as the pros, they would be good. The pros use pro gear because it's better (lighter, stronger, etc.) but what a beginner needs to understand is that wearing Air Jordans won't make you dunk like Jordan. Neither will having a $500 custom knife make you bushcraft like Ray Mears. Neither will using a $400 natural Japanese water stone make you sharpen like Murray Carter. I think that is Rick's point, and I think it's a good point to make for a beginner. The second sentence of his post qualifies that statement,

Once you understand the basic principles behind getting things sharp, you can take it as far as you want.

In other words, yes the quality of your gear makes a difference, but improving at sharpening is about technique and understanding the principles of sharpening. The pro gear just makes things a bit easier. I'd hate for a beginning sharpener to buy that $400 natural Japanese water stone and be disappointed when his edge doesn't turn out well. In fact, I think I would advise beginning sharpeners to start sharpening with a cement block, a brick, some cardboard, some newspaper, and a pair of jeans. That's all stuff they have around the house and doesn't cost a penny. If they can get an edge that can push cut newsprint (and you can with that setup), then when they go buy that $400 natural Japanese water stone... they will appreciate it that much more.

 

[stitchawl]

I've done a fair amount of reading re stropping on plain leather but have yet to really grasp what's going on. Is the silica polishing the edge, or does it increase friction at the the very apex and use the plastic properties of the metal to draw the edge thinner? It doesn't sound plausible initially, but when you're realize the scale you're working at...

I have no idea just what is going on (though I'd love to,) at that level of microscopy... only the results. And those results are day and night between high quality horsehide that has been properly cased and high quality cowhide that that also been properly cased. Using the same technique on the same steel that's been sharpened to the same level on stones, then finished with bare leather strops... there is no question that the horsehide outperforms the cowhide hands down! All things being equal, the better equipment gives better results. But remember, this is at the extreme end of the sharpening scale. It's the final step and isn't 'needed' for the average 'sharp' knife. If someone is satisfied with the edge they get using just stones, great! If they want to proceed to CrO2 on MDF or leather, great! But if they want the very, very best... Well, you have to do what the barbers do. That's why they do. LOL!

Stitchawl

 

[Rick Marchand]

Thanks again, Magnanimous... you interpreted my meaning very well. Of course, more refined gear will yield better results... but only IF you know how to use it. Technique MUST come first. When I first started hand sharpening, I used a $15 coarse/fine oil stone from the hardware store and couldn't get a decent edge for the life of me. A few years ago, I was messing around at my cousin's house and sharpened a few of his knives on a similar "cheapo" stone. I was somewhat stunned at the quality of the cutting edge I got... so much so that it changed the way I thought about sharpening. I learned from MS Wally Hayes, who often talked about his buddy, Murry Carter getting killer edges on a cinder block and cardboard. It was the first time I really sat down and thought about the evolution of my sharpening technique. I had come full circle and was getting a great edge on the crappy stones I started out with. It wasn't the gear I used, it was the way in which I used it. It was one of those "Derp" moments when my heart sunk thinking about all the money I invested in equipment, only to ruin it with improper technique. Which is why I made that statement and stand behind it 100%. Murry's videos are excellent, btw... even for the advanced sharpener.

I think the notion of having to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear is THE quickest route to self improvement. You will only ever be as good as your gear, if you can't see past it.

Just think... If you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear..... imagine what you can do with a ream of silk!!! It only gets better!!!

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Science (material+abrasive+profile+geometry) is the most important factor, it determines minimum gear requirement plus proper Technique(Art) to get decent result.

MurrayC is no doubt a genious sharpner however his overly simplified message of using simple (even non flatten) stone & newspaper strop actually not helpful for newb sharpner, whereby will fail when trying to sharpen high alloy knives.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Science (material+abrasive+profile+geometry) is the most important factor, it determines minimum gear requirement plus proper Technique(Art) to get decent result.

MurrayC is no doubt a genious sharpner however his overly simplified message of using simple (even non flatten) stone & newspaper strop actually not helpful for newb sharpner, whereby will fail when trying to sharpen high alloy knives.

Not to belabor the point, but I think his "overly simplified message of using simple (even non flatten) stone & newspaper strop" is actually a very good one for new sharpeners. You don't need a precision flat surface to sharpen, and that's the point. Murray Carter teaches his sharpening students the principle of "one point of contact," which means understanding that the knife hits the stone at one point at any time. Which means you can even sharpen on a curved surface if you know how to "follow" the curve with the curve of the edge.

In fact, Japanese sword sharpeners (polishers) purposely use rounded "finger stones" to put edges on swords. They do this by understanding that the stone only contacts the edge at one point at any time. This concept also helps when you are trying to sharpen a recurve with a flat stone, for example. Even if you water stone (or Arkansas stone, India stone, whatever) is severely dished, you can still sharpen on it if you have the technique down.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Not to belabor the point, but I think his "overly simplified message of using simple (even non flatten) stone & newspaper strop" is actually a very good one for new sharpeners. You don't need a precision flat surface to sharpen, and that's the point. Murray Carter teaches his sharpening students the principle of "one point of contact," which means understanding that the knife hits the stone at one point at any time. Which means you can even sharpen on a curved surface if you know how to "follow" the curve with the curve of the edge.

In fact, Japanese sword sharpeners (polishers) purposely use rounded "finger stones" to put edges on swords. They do this by understanding that the stone only contacts the edge at one point at any time. This concept also helps when you are trying to sharpen a recurve with a flat stone, for example. Even if you water stone (or Arkansas stone, India stone, whatever) is severely dished, you can still sharpen on it if you have the technique down.

Yes Mag! with skills you can sharpen on bumpy surfaces but lack of skills (newb) will create a wavy (and or hole in) edge over time, ruin it. For recurve, one better serve by using rounded (pick an ideal radius of curvature) stone for that. For me, I use the rounded the edge of my benchstone for sharpening recurve.

 

[stitchawl]

MurrayC is no doubt a genious sharpner however his overly simplified message of using simple (even non flatten) stone & newspaper strop actually not helpful for newb sharpner, whereby will fail when trying to sharpen high alloy knives.

And therein lies the rub... that difference between the newbie sharpener and the one who's perfected his/her skills. And this point MUST be highlighted because it can be the difference between success and failure. No question that skill must come first. 'Training Wheels' if necessary! And the correct equipment. The better the skills, the less important the equipment becomes. But try as hard as you want, you will not be able to spin straw into gold. Even if you are the worlds very best spinner...

Not to belabor the point, but I think his "overly simplified message of using simple (even non flatten) stone & newspaper strop" is actually a very good one for new sharpeners. You don't need a precision flat surface to sharpen, and that's the point.

I live in Japan. Been here for 25 years. I've spent countless hours wandering through the knife-making neighborhoods of Seki City, Kyoto, Osaka, etc... watching and learning, peering over the shoulders of top Japaneses bladesmiths. Some of the larger stones that I've seen them using look more like soup dishes than flat stones!!! There are traveling sharpeners who come around once a month, riding their bicycles through the villages with a tub of water strapped to the back, setting up in the courtyards of apartment houses or in front of the town community centers, while the housewives bring down their knives and cleavers to be sharpened by him. His stones usually look like skateboard tubes! I've watched "Japanese National Living Treasures" sharpening blades on stones that, if you put a straight edge across the top, you'd be able to slide your fingers between the stone and the bottom of the edge. I've watched others take chips of stone the size of confetti on their fingertips, and rub those along the edges. Nothing even remotely flat there... except the finished edge...

When I read here about folks flattening their stones between every knife (or some even flattening between every few strokes,) I wonder just how quickly they must be buying new equipment?!?

Someone commented that a fellow compressed his strops with a hammer and was surprised that he could get it flat... I replied that it doesn't NEED to be flat. It just needs to be firm and have the silicates migrated to the surface. The blade only makes contact with a very small area at a time. You can strop on a baseball if you are careful. But this brings us back to RM's comment about skills... The skills must be there first. THAT is imperative!


Stitchawl

 

[Magnaminous_G]

I envy you I'd love to go to Japan and see master sharpeners at work. It must have been interesting as hell!

 

[Rick Marchand]

Great post, Stitch!

I also think "training wheels" are necessary... but they should be applied in a way to allow your technique to eventually stand on its own. Since it is safe to say that a dull knife isn't the end of the world, striving to make that silk purse from a sow's ear can teach you more than the flattest stone ever could. There is nothing wrong with using the very best stones. films, paper and strops to achieve the sharpest of sharp cutting edges... but if you can't put a decent edge on a blade using the $15 stone, something is amiss... plain carbon and super alloyed steels alike.

 

[stitchawl]

I envy you I'd love to go to Japan and see master sharpeners at work. It must have been interesting as hell!

We try to get to Seki City every year for the Knife Festival. Fantastic event. But it's even more interesting to me to go during mid-week other times of the year and see the 'down and dirty' every-day production. While there are still several makers who even produce their own steels from black sand, the average top-end makers are more production-like factories, just in smaller shops, and crank out dozens of knives a day with assistants doing 95% of the work. Still interesting as hell to watch the sparks fly! I live closer to Sakai in Osaka, which is the knife-making center in this prefecture (Seki City is in Gifu prefecture, several hours drive from here) so it's just an hour's motorcycle ride to get to the small back streets where the smiths have their workshops. What really impresses me is that soooo much care is taken to produce a blade, and then that blade is just stuck into a wooden dowel as a handle... if... a handle is even used for the blade!

Great post, Stitch!
I also think "training wheels" are necessary... but they should be applied in a way to allow your technique to eventually stand on its own. Since it is safe to say that a dull knife isn't the end of the world, striving to make that silk purse from a sow's ear can teach you more than the flattest stone ever could. There is nothing wrong with using the very best stones. films, paper and strops to achieve the sharpest of sharp cutting edges... but if you can't put a decent edge on a blade using the $15 stone, something is amiss... plain carbon and super alloyed steels alike.

... or even $1.25 sheet of wet/dry sandpaper!! Too right! We do need to learn the skills, without which even the $350 set-ups won't give us butter knives!


Stitchawl