stropping matierals

[OzarkCreekWalker]

I'm sorry if this topic has been beaten to death but i'm new here. Does stropping on blue jeans or newspaper work well? Is it really necessary to buy compounds when one can just use a leather belt? I guess what I am really saying is that i'm cheap but i like my knives sharp Again i'm sorry if this has been discussed numerous times, if so please point me in the right direction. Thanks!

 

[EMcDannell]

Im just begining to get into the finer parts of sharpening but might be able to give a bit of info until some of the more experienced guys come around. If you want a mirrior edge your gonna need more steps befor the plain leather strope or jeans. But the way i understand it you can get results from such things if the edge has been worked to that point with other coarser compounds. If you do not use the coarser compounds you are going to have to do alot of work to get results from the plain strop. the purpose of the strope is to continusly make the burr created by shapening smaller and smaller thus making the knife sharper. This can be done witout as many steps but if you want a mirrior edge you will want as many steps as possible to make it easier to remove the scratch patterns from the previous grits. so basically from what I understand you can use just one leather,strope but its gonna be alot of work and you wont be able to get a mirrior edge. Again I am no expert and if im way off here one of you more experianced guys say so so my post can be ignored. Heres is a recent thread of mine you might be interested in that has some real usful info from more experinced members: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/865760-how-many-strop-pastes-do-i-need

 

[OzarkCreekWalker]

thanks for the reply and the link, i understand it much better know. If this is what you meant - stropping on bare materials works fine after sharpening on a stone, but compound is needed as a sole sharpening method without a stone. But can't high grit sandpaper also mirror polish edges? thanks ocw

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

High grit sandpaper CAN mirror polish, but only if the preceding grit steps are sufficient to prepare it for that. Using sandpaper as the example, if one were to use a grit sequence like 220/600/1000/2000, those steps are too far apart to produce a mirror finish. The 600 grit is a bit too fine to remove all the scratches from the 220, and the 1000 won't remove all the scratches from the 220/600, UNLESS you work for a very long time. So, when the 2000 step comes, you'll essentially be polishing the residual scratches left from the 220/600/1000. They'll get shinier, but will stick out like sore thumbs, especially under bright light. To get closer to a true mirror, the gaps need to get narrower between grit steps. Something like 220/320/400/600/800/1000/1200/1500/2000 would do a lot better. But you still have to make sure you've 'erased' all the scratches from the previous grit, before moving up in the grit chain. Asssuming you've done that, you should start to see something approaching a mirror finish at around 1000 grit (maybe a little bit hazy mirror). The grits beyond that will really begin to make it 'pop & shine'.

Edit:
This may seem grossly oversimplified, but when I'm attempting to polish an edge or blade, and I see a lot of residual scratches left over from coarser grits, I tend to be reminded of attempting to 'smooth out' my yard with a garden rake, after it's been trenched, 6 feet deep, with a backhoe. Attempting to polish a blade, with much-too-wide gaps in grit, is much like this. You might get it done, but it'll take a VERY, VERY LOOONNG TIME.

 

[EMcDannell]

thanks for the reply and the link, i understand it much better know. If this is what you meant - stropping on bare materials works fine after sharpening on a stone, but compound is needed as a sole sharpening method without a stone. But can't high grit sandpaper also mirror polish edges? thanks ocw

Well you probably could jump from your finest stone to a plain strope but it would take a good bit of work. You would probably want to have some stropes with some type of compound to make it less work and to get the best results. I personally use the lanskey sharping kit. I work the edge all the way down to the sapphire hone(which would be like an extra extra fine stone) I than go to a strope with green compound. The green compound is like 6 bucks or so for enough to last a life time. right now I stop with the green and this produces hair wittling edges that are far beyond most peoples practical/actual need. If I put in a little more work I can start to get a decent mirrior edge. i have however been saving up to pick up the dmt 6,3, and 1 micron strope pastes. I plan on using all im using now and then working down the dmt pastes is order and finnishing up with a plain leather strope. Now the dmt pastes are alittle expensive at about $25. And good quaility stroping leather was like $10 or $15 bucks for a 8x10 or so sheet. So if your trying to stay cheap id just finnish with the gren compound or maybe really make sure your raising a burr the entire leanth of the blade and finishing with your finest stone. It really depends on what you need/want out of your edge and what your willing to spend. I will warn you tho its as easy to become obsesed with the perfect edge as it is with finding the perfect knife.

 

[Call_to_Arms]

I spent around $10 on a 3 piece pocket stone set, something like 240, 360, 600grit, the last one feels kinda like chalk when you run your blade over it. From there it was about $12 for a 2" belt blank from tandy and around $4 to get a peice of 1x3 ripped to 2" at Home Depot. The last step was a 10$ bar of green compound from lee valley (in hindsight I think somewhere that sells industrial supplies might have it for cheaper). Now, once I have an edge I am happy with from the stones I strop, and continue to strop every couple of days depending on how much use that knife sees. My vantage has a slightly cloudy mirror edge that cuts like a laser.

I also grabbed a 3x8 fine/course stone at the flea market for $4 for touching up my throwing knives and machetes that see a lot of abuse. Total money spent $42.

Now if you have a belt, can find a piece of wood or do without, and buy the compound in a bulk bar for under $10 you could do this for very cheap.

 

[OzarkCreekWalker]

Thanks guys, i guess i'll have to get me some green compound! EMcDannell, I'm sure I will get sucked into the world of the perfect edge once a get a knife scary sharp but I've already found the perfect knives for me so I'll be able to afford it. After all, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

 

[Ben Dover]

I have found that thin balsa wood with paste or spray works better for me than leather.

And it's far more economical.

 

[jackknife]

I think too many people over think this. I just go right from my 600 grit diamond hone to the back of my belt. It works just fine, and gives a shaving sharp edge.

Carl.

 

[REAPER4206969]

I use the type of cardboard found on the back of paper pads loaded with common metal polish.

It works incredibly well.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

To OP:

1. According to the now-famous 2004 paper written by Iowa State University's John Verhoeven, using a leather strop with no compound has essentially no effect on the blade edge. In other words, you have to use compound to get any effect from stropping. I know lots of people will disagree, but hey... it's Dr. Verhoeven's opinion, not mine, but he's got scanning electron microscope pictures to prove it.

2. There are several different color compounds. Specops--who apparently hasn't been active on this forum since 2003--was the master of stropping and could get blades sharp enough to cut a hanging strand of hair in two cleanly with a single swipe. He ONLY used "white diamond" compound loaded on the rough side of a leather strop.

I've just more-or-less figured out the technique through reading and re-reading his instructions and trial-and-error, and I have to say that stropping per Specops's technique has made my knives sharper than they were even with extra fine stones. Hope this helps.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

1. According to the now-famous 2004 paper written by Iowa State University's John Verhoeven, using a leather strop with no compound has essentially no effect on the blade edge. In other words, you have to use compound to get any effect from stropping. I know lots of people will disagree, but hey... it's Dr. Verhoeven's opinion, not mine, but he's got scanning electron microscope pictures to prove it.

I can verify, with absolute certainty, that stropping on bare leather absolutely DOES make a difference. With stropping, it's all about degrees of 'sharp'. Leather is known to contain silicates (abrasives) which are very fine (MUCH finer than compounds). This is why bare leather has been used for so long, by those who really have hands-on experience, as the finishing step in stropping.

When I hear someone say leather has no effect at all, to me it just means proper work hasn't been done with the edge, prior to stropping, or the stropping was done with poor technique. You have to get there in tight steps, from stones to one or two compounded strops, THEN to bare leather, to give the leather the chance to be effective. When you approach that final step correctly and with good technique, not only will you see how effective it is, you might even be amazed by it.

BTW, I've read Verhoeven's paper too. He did do some interesting work, provided much food for thought. But, you need to be careful in interpreting any 'expert' opinion too literally. Especially careful in accepting the opinion of one expert as gospel, when so many millions of people, over the course of centuries, have conclusively proven otherwise. There's much more to it than that, a much bigger picture to understand.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

The primary purpose of stropping is to remove a wire edge, or burr, by bending it back and forth until it breaks off.
Using an extremely fine stone, such as synthetic ruby- will polish an edge brighter than any compound. Using a polishing compound properly can help refine an edge, but it can still leave a small burr. Stropping on leather, cardboard, or even linen will remove the final burr.

 

[stitchawl]

To OP:
1. According to the now-famous 2004 paper written by Iowa State University's John Verhoeven, using a leather strop with no compound has essentially no effect on the blade edge. In other words, you have to use compound to get any effect from stropping. I know lots of people will disagree, but hey... it's Dr. Verhoeven's opinion, not mine, but he's got scanning electron microscope pictures to prove it.

This exemplifies the reason why both sides of a courtroom controversy BOTH have 'experts' to testify, and always at 180 degrees to each other...

You don't need to be a rocket scientist or use electron microscopes to decide for yourself if bare leather works or not. Sharpen a blade correctly, finishing with a 3,000 or 4,000 tape. Test your edge. Then give that edge 20-30 alternating 'correct' strokes on a good bare horsehide strop and test your edge again. Besides learning that bare stropping does work, you'll also learn not to believe every 'expert' that comes along. Test for yourself. Don't take anyone's word for it. TEST FOR YOURSELF.

Obviously if you stop your stone work at 400 grit, a bare leather strop isn't going to do much. It's not intended to work that way. A crescent wrench doesn't work well as a screwdriver either. Tools need to be used correctly. A strop is nothing more than a tool in our sharpening set-up. Use it correctly.


Stitchawl

 

[Magnaminous_G]

I can verify, with absolute certainty, that stropping on bare leather absolutely DOES make a difference. With stropping, it's all about degrees of 'sharp'. Leather is known to contain silicates (abrasives) which are very fine (MUCH finer than compounds). This is why bare leather has been used for so long, by those who really have hands-on experience, as the finishing step in stropping.

When I hear someone say leather has no effect at all, to me it just means proper work hasn't been done with the edge, prior to stropping, or the stropping was done with poor technique. You have to get there in tight steps, from stones to one or two compounded strops, THEN to bare leather, to give the leather the chance to be effective. When you approach that final step correctly and with good technique, not only will you see how effective it is, you might even be amazed by it.

BTW, I've read Verhoeven's paper too. He did do some interesting work, provided much food for thought. But, you need to be careful in interpreting any 'expert' opinion too literally. Especially careful in accepting the opinion of one expert as gospel, when so many millions of people, over the course of centuries, have conclusively proven otherwise. There's much more to it than that, a much bigger picture to understand.

I will admit that I am no expert. I have stropped a total of 2 knives. The Specops technique worked really well for me, but I admit that I haven't tried bare leather.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I will admit that I am no expert. I have stropped a total of 2 knives. The Specops technique worked really well for me, but I admit that I haven't tried bare leather.

Sounds like you need to GET BUSY!

Seriously, the more you do it, the more knives you practice on, and the more your technique improves, you'll begin to realize that technique & skill make 99% of the difference. The better the work is before stropping, the easier the stropping will be (& the more you'll notice it's benefits). Stropping is at it's finest when the edge is all-the-more refined prior to doing it. Bare leather, newsprint, linen & many other media can make a noticeable improvement in sharpness, when the edge is properly prepared for it. And some types of bare leather (like horsehide) are generally recognized to take it up another notch.

 

[jimnolimit]

i strop on canvas that i rubbed with ryobi white polishing compound (2-5 micron). i got the compound from a large home center for about $4.

 

[Jason B.]

I'm sorry if this topic has been beaten to death but i'm new here. Does stropping on blue jeans or newspaper work well? Is it really necessary to buy compounds when one can just use a leather belt? I guess what I am really saying is that i'm cheap but i like my knives sharp Again i'm sorry if this has been discussed numerous times, if so please point me in the right direction. Thanks!

As long as the work on stones is done correctly newspaper makes a great stropping material.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Sounds like you need to GET BUSY!

Seriously, the more you do it, the more knives you practice on, and the more your technique improves, you'll begin to realize that technique & skill make 99% of the difference. The better the work is before stropping, the easier the stropping will be (& the more you'll notice it's benefits). Stropping is at it's finest when the edge is all-the-more refined prior to doing it. Bare leather, newsprint, linen & many other media can make a noticeable improvement in sharpness, when the edge is properly prepared for it. And some types of bare leather (like horsehide) are generally recognized to take it up another notch.

Okay... I'm prepared to accept that, sure. *nodding solemnly* but first... I throw the gauntlet down at your feet! Let's see a video. And some more details, like what do you mean by an edge that is "properly prepared for it?"
- G

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Okay... I'm prepared to accept that, sure. *nodding solemnly* but first... I throw the gauntlet down at your feet! Let's see a video. And some more details, like what do you mean by an edge that is "properly prepared for it?"
- G

As for video, I don't have a camera for that. The upside is, there are many good videos already out there (search Murray Carter sharpening).

By 'properly prepared', basically it comes down to making sure the edge is completely apexed (at an absolute minimum). Beyond that, the more refined (polished) the edge is made on the stones, the more effective the stropping will be at further refining & polishing the edge. I mentioned earlier, about 'degrees of sharp'; that's sort of what I was referring to. Stropping is usually done with very fine grit compound, or in the case of bare leather, EXTREMELY fine abrasives (silicates) in the leather. If your edge off the stones is very coarse, the strop can remove burrs, but you can't expect much beyond that in terms of polish or additional refinement (thinning) of the edge. For high polish, it needs to be approached in small steps, tight increments in grit progression. If the jump from one grit to the next is too wide (say, from 220 to 600 to 1000, if using wet/dry sandpaper), then the much smaller abrasives on the strop won't be very effective at removing the coarse scratches left behind. If, on the other hand, the grit sequence is tight (220/320/400/600/800/1200/1500/2000, then stropping with something like 6, 3 and 1 micron diamond paste) the bare strops will at least have a chance to really make the edge 'pop'. All of this assumes, of course, that the technique is solid (consistent angle maintained, good regulation of pressure throughout the process). Good technique trumps all, when sharpening. Bad technique will always produce bad results, regardless of which tools you use. Moral of the story: practice, practice, practice, as much as you can. And pay very close attention to all you do, while you're doing it. Use a good magnifier, under bright light, to frequently inspect the edge, as you work.