Stropping on Glossy Magazine Covers

redsquid2

redsquid2

Free-Range Cheese Baby
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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A long time ago, somebody told me that glossy paper, like in magazines, has microscopic ceramic bits. I have tried stropping on magazine covers, but don't notice any difference in my edge. However, I am not the most practiced stropper.

How about any of you - ever tried this, and noticed a difference in your edge?
 
I don't know whether magazine covers have 'ceramic' in them, per se. But, I think they do contain certain raw silica-based or other mineral clay elements (called 'kaolin' or 'kaolinite') that might(?) be effective*. That being said, if an edge is fine enough, even plain paper on a hard backing can sometimes be effective for stropping, at least for stripping burrs away; not so much for polishing or other abrasion-related refinement.

* = Even 'kaolinite' is not very hard, rating only 2-2.5 on the Mohs scale of hardness, as compared to most cutlery steels anywhere from Mohs 6-8. In reading about the use of Kaolinite for glossy papers, some apparently might be using calcium carbonate (i.e. 'chalk') instead, which is only moderately harder at Mohs ~3 or so.

I suspect most of the value in stropping with glossy papers is in stripping fine burrs away, and/or realigning a very fine slightly rolled edge, which some materials do exceedingly well, like denim, canvas or linen, for example. Without a more capable compound, it won't likely do much polishing or additional thinning/refinement, however.


David
 
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Glossy paper works pretty well, most gloss paper has all manner of clays and whiteners, sometimes including titanium oxides. It works but many of the samples most folk are going to come across have been printed on, so now a layer of pigments, vehicle, and almost always a layer of varnish, UV, or aqueous coating that will inhibit any mineral action on the steel. You will still get a nice mild burnishing effect if the edge is already nice and sharp.

I find uncoated calendared paper to work better in most cases, sometimes far better.
 
redsquid2 said:
A long time ago, somebody told me that glossy paper, like in magazines, has microscopic ceramic bits. I have tried stropping on magazine covers, but don't notice any difference in my edge. However, I am not the most practiced stropper.

How about any of you - ever tried this, and noticed a difference in your edge?
Click to expand...

I've tried magazine paper/cover, cardboard... I don't notice any improvement in cutting
I think its because they aren't very abrasive, so I tried a simple test,
I tried to polish the side of my blade with magazine paper..
20 strokes and no visual change ... its just not very abrasive
20 strokes with abrasives is more than enough to scratch or polish very very visibly
update: very good read http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/Stropping.html
 
Paper over a hard surface will definitely have an effect. How much abrasion and how much burnishing is the question. Wrap a sheet of plain copy paper around the coarse side of a combination bench stone and strop a freshly sharpened edge done to a medium finish, or the primary grind of a blade that's just been done up to a satin finish. Wash with alcohol etc prior, to reduce the influence of residual surface grit, and apply enough pressure that you can feel the surface of the stone. Appearance and cutting ability both improve when I do this with the exception of high carbide steels.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Paper over a hard surface will definitely have an effect. How much abrasion and how much burnishing is the question. Wrap a sheet of plain copy paper around the coarse side of a combination bench stone and strop a freshly sharpened edge done to a medium finish, or the primary grind of a blade that's just been done up to a satin finish. Wash with alcohol etc prior, to reduce the influence of residual surface grit, and apply enough pressure that you can feel the surface of the stone. Appearance and cutting ability both improve when I do this with the exception of high carbide steels.
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What?
How many strokes? How much force?
If the color of the white paper isn't changing, then its probably not abrasion :)
 
bucketstove said:
What?
How many strokes? How much force?
If the color of the white paper isn't changing, then its probably not abrasion :)
Click to expand...

There might be some color if examined closely, some additives in paper are capable of working steel but are also very low in overall content and very close to the limit for hardened tool steel (titanium dioxide at close to 7 Mohs). For the most part its more of a burnishing action. The effect is visible to the naked eye and apparent under magnification.
 
Card board is an excellent strop and has been used for decades to remove burrs and burnish edges. I do a sharpening demonstration where I take my mobile belt machines and show people how to and how not to put an edge on blades. I raise a large burr on the belt machine and remove it, plunging the blade into a tall cardboard box, slicing through it to the bottom removing the burr in one motion. I go on to show how a small section of a cardboard box can be used to improve an edge or remove a burr.
The bottom line is, do you understand what the condition of an edge is and what are the possibilities and how do I realize those possibilities.

Fred
 
HeavyHanded said:
There might be some color if examined closely, some additives in paper are capable of working steel but are also very low in overall content and very close to the limit for hardened tool steel (titanium dioxide at close to 7 Mohs). For the most part its more of a burnishing action. The effect is visible to the naked eye and apparent under magnification.
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So how much force and how many strokes?
I just tried again, a good 20pps, really hard, 20-30lbs easy , and as high as 50lbs, paper did change visibly , it got compressed/polished , maybe a little darker (probably just cleaning the blade), but knife finish didn't change
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Card board is an excellent strop and has been used for decades to remove burrs and burnish edges. I do a sharpening demonstration where I take my mobile belt machines and show people how to and how not to put an edge on blades. I raise a large burr on the belt machine and remove it, plunging the blade into a tall cardboard box, slicing through it to the bottom removing the burr in one motion. I go on to show how a small section of a cardboard box can be used to improve an edge or remove a burr.
The bottom line is, do you understand what the condition of an edge is and what are the possibilities and how do I realize those possibilities.

Fred
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I can't see threaded view so I don't know which post you're responding exactly, but I have a few question for you

How much force do you use? How many passes? At what angle (same as sharpening/edge-bevel angle, higher, lower)?
Have you tried simply cutting the burr off?
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Card board is an excellent strop and has been used for decades to remove burrs and burnish edges. I do a sharpening demonstration where I take my mobile belt machines and show people how to and how not to put an edge on blades. I raise a large burr on the belt machine and remove it, plunging the blade into a tall cardboard box, slicing through it to the bottom removing the burr in one motion. I go on to show how a small section of a cardboard box can be used to improve an edge or remove a burr.
The bottom line is, do you understand what the condition of an edge is and what are the possibilities and how do I realize those possibilities.

Fred
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This^^^^^

Cardboard makes for a very inexpensive and effective strop!

One thing to note from my observations, it that depending on the type of steel, the effort required will vary.

For example, a high carbon steel like 52100 will show very little effort. The edge can almost be permanently maintained on cardboard...
 
bucketstove said:
So how much force and how many strokes?
I just tried again, a good 20pps, really hard, 20-30lbs easy , and as high as 50lbs, paper did change visibly , it got compressed/polished , maybe a little darker (probably just cleaning the blade), but knife finish didn't change
Click to expand...

I would say three - four pounds at the outside. Press too hard and there's the possibility you fragment the edge. If you're using the paper over the coarse side of a stone (or Washboard!), you'll amplify the burnishing effect considerably - make sure there's no loose grit on the stone surface. 20 passes should do, maybe as high as 40 before you've gotten 90% of what the method has to offer. A few passes at closer to a half or quarter pound with spine elevated will burnish right at the edge. Since true abrasive content is so low, is almost all burnishing, so as long as you don't damage the edge, it won't round either.

Before:
400xPre_Cal_zps12b3d270.jpg


After:
400xPost_Cal_zps690e746e.jpg


Same stretch of edge, bottom pic is shifted approx 6 micron to the left. This is 600 or 800 grit. Edge was washed with alcohol and wiped clean prior to first pic.

Not only cleans up the edge in terms of burrs, but refines a bit by burnishing. I cannot prove it, but edge retention seems to go up somewhat as well - at the least it isn't negatively effected.
 
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Maybe so. But for me to realize a improvement in the edge it take me several hundred strokes on the paper. Like 4-500. That's when I start to see a difference in the bevel and in cutting. I just don't think there is enough abrasive particles in paper for it to work in short order. The steel I worked it was 425M. DM
 
HeavyHanded said:
I would say three - four pounds at the outside. Press too hard and there's the possibility you fragment the edge. If you're using the paper over the coarse side of a stone (or Washboard!), you'll amplify the burnishing effect considerably - make sure there's no loose grit on the stone surface. 20 passes should do, maybe as high as 40 before you've gotten 90% of what the method has to offer. A few passes at closer to a half or quarter pound with spine elevated will burnish right at the edge....
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David Martin said:
Maybe so. But for me to realize a improvement in the edge it take me several hundred strokes on the paper. Like 4-500. That's when I start to see a difference in the bevel and in cutting. I just don't think there is enough abrasive particles in paper for it to work in short order. The steel I worked it was 425M. DM
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Well, thank you for that information ... I see a difference between the pictures (haha)

I've tried it again, did a good 120 pps, real careful strokes, no change in the ability of the knife that I could discern
I imagine its because I cut the burr off on the stone

Also, 400-500pps? That is a lot of them dave
about 350 pps is the longest a full sharpening takes me ... when I skip the coarsest stone... and the first 300pps don't need a lot of focus
 
This is like arguing whether an edge can be made sharper using peanut butter :). There are so many different and better materials about that using paper would be my last choice, other than peanut butter. Cardboard works, with what ever it's processed in, providing the abrasion.

Get your self an ERU, to carry in your pocket, you will never have this problem.

Fred
 
Fred.Rowe said:
This is like arguing whether an edge can be made sharper using peanut butter :). There are so many different and better materials about that using paper would be my last choice, other than peanut butter. Cardboard works, with what ever it's processed in, providing the abrasion.

Get your self an ERU, to carry in your pocket, you will never have this problem.

Fred
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What problem?
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Spending 45 minutes making an edge sharp.
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How long do you spend?



FWIW, I don't see where anyone in this thread mentions their sharpening routine is 45min ...
450 strokes, even at slow pace of one a minute is only 7.5 minutes total not 45min
:)
 
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