Stropping vs Ultra Fine Stones

Is your goal removal of burr or refining the apex after relatively coarse stone?

I also like the little blue plastic wedges that reference the blade angle relative to the stone/strop surface.

Thanks FK. I did purchase a 10x Belomo loupe, and it helps immensely. My goal is both the removal of the burr, and refining the edge. I'm looking for a long lasting edge that also cuts smoothly and well.

Also, I'm using a fixed angle sharpener, a Hapstone V7, and I have an angle cube. Do you still think I need the angle wedges?
 
If you are using a fixed angle sharpener and angle cube,,, no.

The angle wedges are not expensive and I really like them for free hand stropping.

Regards,
FK
 
It is my understanding that razors are very different than our discussion on knives.
The knives we discuss have an apex of 30-24 degrees included angle on a much thicker blade support. You must flex the strop surface with hard pressure or have a rather soft flexible strop medium to convex the edge. The strop material is fixed to a stiff wooden (typically) base and is firmly supported.

Razors are hollow ground behind the very shallow apex and the steel will flex easily to help form the convex edge shape. In addition the strop is free hanging and deflects when stropping to create the desired convex apex micro bevel. Search "straight razor blade profile" and compare the illustrations to our knives.

Regards,
FK
We can agree to disagree that knives are different from razors.
However, you are confusing convex with micro-convex. Micro-convexity is not a result of compression of the strop, it is caused by the loose fibers of leather/linen/wood at the surface of the strop. It absolutely does not require any sort of downward pressure.
 
Gents, take any further critique of each other's posts to email or PM. This is not the place.
If I had a way of PMing or emailing him, I most certainly would have. I’m not the type to lean on someone publicly, but as far as I can tell, I can’t PM him, nor do I know his email.

Wowbagger, my email is samuraistuart@yahoo.com. Send me an email. We need to chat.
 
This is an interesting topic. The founder of the German kitchen knife forum I am most active on, and a few other users there did very extensive testing of what produces the most long lasting edge. He is a cook by profession who cooks thousands of meals per week (he cooks at a school and at a hotel) which enables him to make extensive tests. In his experiments he focused on high alloyed steels like 1.2562, M390, HAP 40, Rex 121.

To make it short: a knife sharpened with jig (angle control) lasts longer than freehand. A jig which also has pressure control makes a significantly longer lasting edge than one without: on the finest stones you sharpen with very little pressure, barely touching the stone.

It is easy to make a hair whittling edge with a diamond leather strop but it will not last as long, according to their tests.

The longest lasting edge is produced by going up to a very fine synthetic stone, either a Shapton 30K or a Gokumyo 20K (they are both 0.5 micron). And then finishing on a very fine natural stone (usually a fine Thuringian, a Japanese Nakayama (or similar), or an Arkansas). There has been a lot of discussion about why a natural stone makes such a difference with lots of theories but no clear answer. It just seems to work.

The jig most of the users of this forum use is called "Bogdan" named after the Ukrainian who developed it. It allows sharpening with bench sized water stones which is more useful when sharpening large kitchen knives. The one with pressure control has a spring at the top, there is also a "light" version without that feature.

Here are a few videos showing the Bogdan:



This one is the smaller standard version and here you can see the spring at the top:


(It seem to me that he is using too much pressure on the finishing stones in this video.)

I know that this can be a controversial topic and everyone has their own idea (not trying to convince anybody) but I thought it might be interesting to some as food for thought.

Also, the needs of a kitchen knife might be different than that of a hard use blade, some more testing would have to be done. But I can imagine that they are not as far from each other as the razor blade is from them.
 
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C ckdexterhaven That is an awesome jig!

Do you have a forum link to these tests, and the discussion about natural finishing stones?

The info is scattered around but here are a few things:

It all started 2016 before the German kitchen knife forum was founded (by Wastl) in the German "messerforum" when Wastl (who had been free hand sharpening for 15 years) made a bet with a user named Dimm that his free hand sharpened knives were as sharp and would stay as long sharp as the knives which were sharpened on the Bogdan. He lost the bet and found out that the jig sharpened knives held sharpness much longer. This is the original thread: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?133573-Sch%E4rfsysteme-auch-zum-%84Banksteinsch%E4rfen%93-geeignet

Here is a recent discussion on natural stones: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/3831/ohira-suita-vorstellung-vergleich-standzeit

This thread was started by the user "suntravel" who is a knife maker and who also built an improved version of the Bogdan and who had until now doubted that natural stones bring any improvement.

Here is a review by Wastl of the large Bogdan called "Skorpion": https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/470/review-skorpion-rfsystem-bogdan-manko

Here is a thread about building the Bogdan yourself: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/833/sch-rfen-mit-system-eigenbau

This is a video by Bogdan in which he also shows a system for Edge Pro stones with pressure control:
 
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To make it short: a knife sharpened with jig (angle control) lasts longer than freehand. A jig which also has pressure control makes a significantly longer lasting edge than one without: on the finest stones you sharpen with very little pressure, barely touching the stone.

This is maybe a little off topic, as film used with a guided system could arguably be called "stropping", but didn't CATRA find that quality hand sharpening produced greater longevity?

For myself I haven't noticed any real difference except that stropping works best on sub 28° edge angles to start - same as microbeveling really.
 
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