Stuff systems, I want to be Old School.

A

Alacrity

Joined
Aug 25, 2013
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Had a bit of a mental breakthrough this morning. Pulled out the old RMD and was doing some work on it to prep for a camping trip this weekend and ended up needing a bit of work on the Sharpmaker and just couldn't take it. I don't want to use a system. I want to get good at free handing knives. For the past few months I have been debating the EPA or WE systems and fretting about spending hundreds of dollars to get flawless edges. Then I realized, "I'm a knife user... Why would I care if each edge is perfectly symmetrical?" So I decided I'd like to go freehand.

Having said that I have very little knowledge of good stones. Should I go diamond DMT? Should I go Shapton Glass stones? I have some cheaper knives to play around with to learn the basics and I also have some expensive ones I'll never sell because they're gifts so I don't mind mucking up an edge or two to learn. So please, help me get set up with a freehand system! I am calling on the wealth of experience and knowledge in this forum! Help a poor newbie. At this time I'd probably like to start with a lower budget until I get confident. Maybe a beginners set approach to this? I also own knives from 3 in to 6 in in length and plan on grabbing some in the 7-9 in range soon.

Thanks again BladeForums! I also apologize for posting a thread that has probably been beaten to death 100 times. Not that I feel bad enough to not do it again..

Alacrity
 
If you have any knives with steel that contains a lot of carbides you'll want at least a couple diamond plates. I always recommend getting at least a DMT C (325) for bevel setting. From there you can go any number of different ways. Personally I like Shapton Pro stones for most regular steel.knife stuff. If you want mirror level polish you're going to want to go at least 5k, likely 8k. If you just want a good utility edge, 2k is plenty. For carbide-forming steels I prefer diamond plates - a 1200 would be good for utility edges, 8k for polished ones. From there I'd say get a CrOx loaded leather strop if you're using mostly non-carbide-forming steels, or a diamond or CBN loaded strop if using more carbide-forming (especially vanadium) steels. As always, this is what I would do, YMMV.
 
I make a sharpening block that might be well worth a look for you. Is linked through my signature below - the site has a few videos that are applicable to most freehand sharpening as well as content specific to the block (Washboard).

It has a lot going for it, easily customized, lightweight, inexpensive and increases tactile feedback off the abrasives which is crucial for good freehand results.

Another option to get you going is the Norton India stone and a bottle of oil.

Martin
 
Down & dirty answer for fast free hand sharpening on the cheap, jb8 norton combo Sic 100/280 2x8" and eze-lap fine 600 2x6". $60 max total.

The norton will take care of fast reprofiles even on high carbide steels, and eze-lap enough refinement for all but the most detailed delicate cuts.

Note: Fast heavy reprofiling needs very coarse grit & high pressure. SiC will handle it, diamond won't (grit will get dislodged).
 
I use, at a very low edge angle, like 20 inclusive: a Norton economy stone from lowes ($9 or so) for kinda rough shaping reprofiles with oil. Sheds grit with pressure so works fast.
Ruixin pro 4 with the two roughest stones after for a better bevel. The Norton roughs out the edge, the ruixin angles it so it catches on the stone better for better feel. This is to make it micro bevel easier later.
Micro bevel (it's a sticky)- after the main bevel is set (or, close enough, can really burr just the micro with a little exp) I pick my finish depending on the steel, use and knife but usually still thin (under 25 inclusive). But if I am feeling lazy I grab my Lansky Turnbox and use the grey ones at 20 deg. They all cut really well.
 
jpm2 said:
Down & dirty answer for fast free hand sharpening on the cheap, jb8 norton combo Sic 100/280 2x8" and eze-lap fine 600 2x6". $60 max total....
Click to expand...
Hi,
$60 and the highest grit is 600? Not exactly a deal :/
Harbor freight has 600/400/300/200 diamond turnbox for under $20 ... although I wouldn't buy another one :)

Alacrity said:
Stuff systems, I want to be Old School.
Click to expand...
$1 one dollar is old school $1
My suggestion is always head over to dollar tree
or local asian grocery store...
and get one or two stones for under $3,
learn about simple stone maintenance (flattening, raising slurry),
and sharpen up your kitchen paring knives (or one dollar paring knife)
Give it six months of daily practice :D
reprofile/regrind some of those thin paring knives, get lots of experience.
Then you can decide where to spend your next $57



basic $1 one dollar stone $1 maintenance, just rub/ROUND/chamfer the corners , flatten a bit, Tips for Flattening / Lapping sharpening stones - part 3 - stefanwolf88
then use it to sharpen, no talking, just sharpening Cheap sharpening stone - does it work? - stefanwolf88

see an old boyscout (jackknife) do it with his 1950 $1 dollar sharpening stone Instinctive Knife Sharpening
 
jpm2 said:
Down & dirty answer for fast free hand sharpening on the cheap, jb8 norton combo Sic 100/280 2x8" and eze-lap fine 600 2x6". $60 max total.
Click to expand...
bucketstove said:
Hi, $60 and the highest grit is 600? Not exactly a deal :/
Harbor freight has 600/400/300/200 diamond turnbox for under $20 ... although I wouldn't buy another one :)
Click to expand...

I looked at those 4 sided harbor freight diamond contraptions. It appeared to be a thin piece of sheet metal with diamond attached to one side, and plastic on the other. It was visibly not flat, that's pretty bad. Didn't look at all suitable for sharpening a knife. Didn't look as if it would last very long doing anything.
I considered getting it, peeling the sheet metal and diamond off, and attaching it to something solid and flat, but decided against it when there's others like the eze-lap that already come solid and flat, and will last a lifetime if properly used (had some of mine since the 90's), which does make it a deal at ~$25.
Can't blame you for not buying another, live and learn. :)

Generally speaking, and except for kitchen use and self surgery, I find the higher I go above 600 grit, the less my edge lasts, without benefit of better cutting performance with most tasks. In those rare instances where a more refined edge does give better cutting performance, I run into the law of diminishing returns.
My carry knifes gets used most every day, for everything, because it's usually the only knife I have on me, except for a small slipjoint, which BTW I do keep a highly polished refined edge on for self surgery (digging splinters, thorns, etc).
But I'm hard on my main knife and it just isn't practical to have much more than a 400 grit edge on it.

And in the OP's case, refering to a camp knife, I for sure wouldn't put more than a 600 grit edge on, unless it was dedicated to food prep only, with a cutting board.

Sorry for the long reply, I tried the short answer first ... :)

Edit: forgot to add.
I also have a 250 grit 2x6 diamond eze-lap. The Norton SiC 100 grit is much faster at removing metal, even high carbide stuff, due to being able to use more pressure, pressure that would damage the diamond stones.
 
Last edited:
jpm2 said:
I looked at those 4 sided harbor freight diamond contraptions. It appeared to be a thin piece of sheet metal with diamond attached to one side, and plastic on the other. It was visibly not flat, that's pretty bad. Didn't look at all suitable for sharpening a knife. Didn't look as if it would last very long doing anything.
I considered getting it, peeling the sheet metal and diamond off, and attaching it to something solid and flat, but decided against it when there's others like the eze-lap that already come solid and flat, and will last a lifetime if properly used (had some of mine since the 90's), which does make it a deal at ~$25.
Can't blame you for not buying another, live and learn. :)

Generally speaking, and except for kitchen use and self surgery, I find the higher I go above 600 grit, the less my edge lasts, without benefit of better cutting performance with most tasks. In those rare instances where a more refined edge does give better cutting performance, I run into the law of diminishing returns.
My carry knifes gets used most every day, for everything, because it's usually the only knife I have on me, except for a small slipjoint, which BTW I do keep a highly polished refined edge on for self surgery (digging splinters, thorns, etc).
But I'm hard on my main knife and it just isn't practical to have much more than a 400 grit edge on it.

And in the OP's case, refering to a camp knife, I for sure wouldn't put more than a 600 grit edge on, unless it was dedicated to food prep only, with a cutting board.

Sorry for the long reply, I tried the short answer first ... :)

Edit: forgot to add.
I also have a 250 grit 2x6 diamond eze-lap. The Norton SiC 100 grit is much faster at removing metal, even high carbide stuff, due to being able to use more pressure, pressure that would damage the diamond stones.
Click to expand...

The Norton Silicon Carbide stone is better quality than most, really the best of the breed. The reclaimed mud (if used with oil) makes a great improvised stropping compound as well. Keep it simple when starting out, but do not handicap yourself either.
 
bucketstove said:
$1 one dollar is old school $1
My suggestion is always head over to dollar tree
or local asian grocery store...
and get one or two stones for under $3
Click to expand...

You seem to generally know what you're talking about and I've seen you give this advice before. My limited experience with dollar store stones has been pretty terrible. They are usually very "powdery" and seem to shed grit the instant you start grinding on them. I didn't think AlOx stones were designed to do this, unlike SiC stones which are.

I also generally advocate that anyone get at least decent tools to start with. These stones seem like a step in the wrong direction. A Norton 6" or 8" combo stone seems like money well spent, and at only $20 really is a small investment.

Perhaps you've found stones of far higher quality than the ones I've sampled. I wouldn't use any of the stones I've found at these dollar stores.

Brian.
 
I recently was in your position and wanted to get myself started with freehand sharpening, and I went with a 3pc set of Shapton Pro stones. Got the 320, 1K, and 5K. I went with the Shapton Pros because I have read many great reviews on them, and really liked that the cases provide a built in stone holder. I also ordered an Atoma 140 grit diamond plate for lapping my stones. If I am able to get proficient with the freehand I plan on picking up a diamond 400/1000 grit combo stone for use on my harder steels on my folders.
 
HeavyHanded said:
The Norton Silicon Carbide stone is better quality than most, really the best of the breed. The reclaimed mud (if used with oil) makes a great improvised stropping compound as well. Keep it simple when starting out, but do not handicap yourself either.
Click to expand...

Yes, the Norton SiC stones are excellent, and long wearing.
I've used the mud from those on leather and wood, but better than that is 405N SiC A wt open coat paper. It gradually turns to almost polishing tape with use. I have it in several stages for about any finish I need. It's used after 600 diamond in combination with fine crocus for my most refined edges. All very cost effective.
Mind you now, I don't refine my edges anywhere near some of you do, but 1000-1500 is all I care for (diminishing returns again), and that's just for specialized cutting, which probably makes up less than 10% of my knife use.
 
Norton India and Crystolon (SIC stones) are both excellent. In fact I just purchases one of their tri stone sharpening systems and am quite impressed with it. Its the IM100 which has 6x2 coarse/medium Crystolon and fine India stone. Picked it up for around $35 and it was money well spent. There are several variations of their tri stones, most of them use this stone configuration but in different sizes this happens to be the smallest and cheapest. The IM200 and IM313 are both larger setups.
 
So I think I've narrowed it down to either the Norton 3 stone w/ oil or 3 Shapton water stones.
With either I'd probably buy an atoma 140 stone for lapping.

So I guess my next question is what's the difference between using oil stones or water stones?
 
For clarification the Norton set I'm looking at is the IM200. It says oil stone but could I use water? I'm a little leery using oil... Water is easy to mop up ha.
 
Good stones, but I don't care for the rotating axis with no way to lock them in place, they're not stable enough for me.

I use mine dry or with oil.
Never tried water, but do occasionally clean them with dish soap and water.
 
I suppose that would help.

I have an assortment, I have an s35vn and s30v. 154 cm D2 and SR101. The rest are like 1095 or whatever that steel is.

Will Norton stones be effective with that?

And how crucial is it to get a diamond lapping stone? How often do you have to re flatten stones?
 
bgentry said:
You seem to generally know what you're talking about and I've seen you give this advice before. My limited experience with dollar store stones has been pretty terrible. They are usually very "powdery" and seem to shed grit the instant you start grinding on them. I didn't think AlOx stones were designed to do this, unlike SiC stones which are.

I also generally advocate that anyone get at least decent tools to start with. These stones seem like a step in the wrong direction. A Norton 6" or 8" combo stone seems like money well spent, and at only $20 really is a small investment.

Perhaps you've found stones of far higher quality than the ones I've sampled. I wouldn't use any of the stones I've found at these dollar stores.

Brian.
Click to expand...
Hi,
What brand / what store were these dollar stones that shed grit instantly?
I'd like to buy some of these rowdy indecent waterstones :)

No doubt norton/$20 is a good deal,
but the terrible thing about these stones :D
is you can start using them without having to do maintenance first,
no rounding the corners or flattening the stone a little, no conditioning ,
no soaking/coating/rubbing/treatment of any kind before it will float lubricant on top
...
by the time you've realized and forgotten a few times the stone needs maintenance
and you finally get around to flattening and conditioning the stone again,
you might have to put an hour into it or more :)

Even with all these advantages norton/$20 stones get bad reviews ,
and also labeled the most inexpensive stones,
but they're really premium stones,

the most inexpensive ones are under $3 retail in a brick and mortar store,
there really is no downside by starting with those,
you learn the most by doing,
and with most inexpensive stones, you get to do it all,
rounding, flattening, raising slurry (conditioning)
as many times as you like,
in any way you like ,
a lot of force, a lot of slurry
need to grind out a recurve? grind down a bolster? Saw the stone in half ...
use it to flatten other stones, need loose grit for flattening? smash with hammer
regrind a damaged a tip? remove a tip? grind out/remove serrations? use the most inexpensive stone
you can always walk into a local brick and mortar store and buy a stone for under $3 (or $10),
there is no shipping and handling charges and no waiting
so walk into the store today and buy one,
learn to make the most of it
its great education to help you decide what to buy next

people like to compare stuff, the difference between low end and high end is amazingly not huge :) so start on the low end, no need to jump into deep end first
 
my set up is
combo stone to re pro a edge and then dmt 600 /1200 combo this will get a knife sharp as most will need it but since it is so re laxing to do i also have spyderco set med fine and ultra fine and they are great to use .
it takes time to learn but it is like a drug lololo
 
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