Stuff systems, I want to be Old School.

[bgentry]

Hi,
What brand / what store were these dollar stones that shed grit instantly?
I'd like to buy some of these rowdy indecent waterstones

In Florida there seem to be a lot of independent dollar stores. Many of them are inside flea markets and have everything in cardboard boxes in rows in the aisles. I've seen these stones at these type of dollar stores quite a bit. Some of them have a slight colored tint to the stone. I've seen blue, pink, and just gray. All very light tint, but you can see it; it's subtle. They all come in flimsy cardboard boxes, sometimes with bad basic instructions on a folded piece of paper inside, written in non-English.

A guy I was trying to help along with sharpening bought one from one of the stores at a flea market. He was trying to save every penny to move to another city, so he didn't want to spend $20. But $1 was ok for him. The stone was useless. We tried in on a dull blade he had, using water to help it along and it just seemed to suck the water up and shed grit instantly, almost digging a trench as we went (exaggerating, but that's what it sort of seemed like).

Maybe I need to find an Asian market that has the middle ground $3 stones and try one out. I'm just cautious based on the horrible stones I've seen at so many places as I've described.

Brian.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I've occasionally tried some 'cheap' AlOx stones ($3-$7 or so), and some of them really do shed grit, big time. But down the road, I've sort of rediscovered that's not necessarily a bad thing, as the grit-shedding likely keeps the stone cutting consistently, instead of glazing up with use. Most recently, I found a Chinese-made 2-sided 'brick' (more or less describes it by size/heft) at a restaurant supply store. The price tag on it was ordinarily something like $4.99, and I got it 'on sale' for $2.99. It's a big stone, at about 3" x 8-3/4" x 1-1/2" in size, with a grey AlOx 'coarse' side and a blueish 'Fine' side (no indication of actual grit ratings on the cardboard sleeve in came in). And get this: it was actually FLAT on both sides; no dished edges or upturned corners.

I first used it in grinding new bevels on an inexpensive grocery-store Santoku knife in stainless; did this with the 'Fine' side, which worked very, very fast and left a wicked-toothy edge on it. I used the stone with water, and it shed quite a lot of grit while doing so, but kept cutting aggressively. I was impressed, and the stone likely paid for itself in sharpening that first blade.

The coarse side, I'm still sort of figuring it out. Odd as it seems, it leaves a much coarser scratch pattern on bevels, but actually seems to work a bit more slowly than the 'Fine' side did. One thing I found it did very well: I used the coarse side to lap & flatten a small medium Arkansas stone I had, and it worked great for that. It also shed a LOT of grit while doing that job, and I think that was beneficial to the lapping process on that medium Arkansas stone. Did a nice job without glazing either stone.

I also have an older, inexpensive tri-hone set (unbranded, not a Norton) with a 'coarse' Alox stone. I bought it 20-25 years ago, and never liked that stone, in part because it always SMELLED bad, but mainly because it shed grit like crazy and I couldn't get it to work well at all. But, it turns out, that was just my own inexperience back then, and I've recently figured out how to make better use of it for shaping new bevels. Not so great for refining an edge, due to all that loose, coarse grit moving around; but then, the 'coarse' step of that Tri-hone set likely was never intended for that anyway. The stone has a useful purpose, and it just took me a while to figure out what it was.

I also have an inexpensive 6" x 2" AlOx stone from ACE Hardware (maybe $6-$8) which doesn't shed grit, for all practical purposes. It does better at refining & touch-up tasks than the above-mentioned stone, but isn't as fast-grinding as that one. As with most such AlOx stones I've seen, it's slowed down a bit with some use, presumably due to some glazing as it wears at the surface.


David

You seem to generally know what you're talking about and I've seen you give this advice before. My limited experience with dollar store stones has been pretty terrible. They are usually very "powdery" and seem to shed grit the instant you start grinding on them. I didn't think AlOx stones were designed to do this, unlike SiC stones which are.

I also generally advocate that anyone get at least decent tools to start with. These stones seem like a step in the wrong direction. A Norton 6" or 8" combo stone seems like money well spent, and at only $20 really is a small investment.

Perhaps you've found stones of far higher quality than the ones I've sampled. I wouldn't use any of the stones I've found at these dollar stores.

Brian.

 

[HeavyHanded]

In Florida there seem to be a lot of independent dollar stores. Many of them are inside flea markets and have everything in cardboard boxes in rows in the aisles. I've seen these stones at these type of dollar stores quite a bit. Some of them have a slight colored tint to the stone. I've seen blue, pink, and just gray. All very light tint, but you can see it; it's subtle. They all come in flimsy cardboard boxes, sometimes with bad basic instructions on a folded piece of paper inside, written in non-English.

A guy I was trying to help along with sharpening bought one from one of the stores at a flea market. He was trying to save every penny to move to another city, so he didn't want to spend $20. But $1 was ok for him. The stone was useless. We tried in on a dull blade he had, using water to help it along and it just seemed to suck the water up and shed grit instantly, almost digging a trench as we went (exaggerating, but that's what it sort of seemed like).

Maybe I need to find an Asian market that has the middle ground $3 stones and try one out. I'm just cautious based on the horrible stones I've seen at so many places as I've described.

Brian.

For the life of me I do not know why anyone would skip on the extra $5 over a dollar stone and not get the Norton Econo stone as a baseline. The newer ones come flat and ready to go. The abrasive rating is quality, as is the vitreous bond. They are even less expensive than the ACE or Sears combination stones, both of which are also good quality, actually made in the USA (I think) and retail for about $10.

My experience with the cheapest of stones is not good. They glaze rapidly if used dry, plug rapidly when used with water, shed copiously when used with oil, disintegrate under force or repetition and require additional skill to get the most from them. One could do better (depending on location) walking along a stream bed looking for sand and silt stones.

Why handicap yourself starting out when the difference in price is negligible, there's no point of pride in making due for the beginner, just as there's no point in getting the best possible stones to start. As a bonus, the better combination stones will never collect dust, no matter how many other stones you add to your collection. The cheaper ones you'll want to replace as soon as you understand the difference.

 

[Natlek]

For the life of me I do not know why anyone would skip on the extra $5 over a dollar stone and not get the Norton Econo stone as a baseline. The newer ones come flat and ready to go. The abrasive rating is quality, as is the vitreous bond. They are even less expensive than the ACE or Sears combination stones, both of which are also good quality, actually made in the USA (I think) and retail for about $10.

My experience with the cheapest of stones is not good. They glaze rapidly if used dry, plug rapidly when used with water, shed copiously when used with oil, disintegrate under force or repetition and require additional skill to get the most from them. One could do better (depending on location) walking along a stream bed looking for sand and silt stones.

Why handicap yourself starting out when the difference in price is negligible, there's no point of pride in making due for the beginner, just as there's no point in getting the best possible stones to start. As a bonus, the better combination stones will never collect dust, no matter how many other stones you add to your collection. The cheaper ones you'll want to replace as soon as you understand the difference.

Maybe because they finish the job ? Each of these stones cost half dollars .You need only to well saturated with water and two minutes after that you have hair popping blade .... Of course after a few strokes on strop
Yes , these cheap stone eat steel like hot cakes .......steel like M2 ,M35 , M42 ...........

 

[HeavyHanded]

Maybe because they finish the job ? Each of these stones cost half dollars .You need only to well saturated with water and two minutes after that you have hair popping blade .... Of course after a few strokes on strop
Yes , these cheap stone eat steel like hot cakes .......steel like M2 ,M35 , M42 ...........

$.50 American or is that the local currency? If they eat M2 like a hot cake, they aren't anything like the stones I have found for $1.

And where are those stones in the pic manufactured? You won't find them at the Dollar Store in the US, or any other scythe stone for that matter. When you do find them retail, they'll be $6 to start at the local farm and tractor.

And I will still argue if money is that tight you should do some homework re local geologic strata - you have decent odds of finding sandstone equal to or better quality than the disintegrating imported stones at the Dollar Store (in my experience, I have found several naturals and they are great for field use). Plus you get exercise, maybe come home with a walking stick too, and now have real point of pride to hang your hat on as you learn to sharpen your tools with Iron Age ingenuity. It doesn't get more "Old School" than a 100% free, 350 million year-old waterstone.

 

[sir_mike]

I am no great sharpener but regarding cheap stones the Norton one that they sell at Home Depot for like $7 is a very good two sided stone. I have one and used it dry sometimes and it works well.

Just sayin' that one doesnt have to spend a lot to get a sharp edge.

 

[jpm2]

Yes , these cheap stone eat steel like hot cakes .......steel like M2 ,M35 , M42 ...........

That's impressive, but I'm skeptical. Nothing "eats" hardened m35 and m42, I've ground a lot of blades from those steels.

BTW, you're the only person I've ever seen reference those steels here besides me. :thumbup:

 

[bgentry]

For the life of me I do not know why anyone would skip on the extra $5 over a dollar stone and not get the Norton Econo stone as a baseline. The newer ones come flat and ready to go. The abrasive rating is quality, as is the vitreous bond.
[...]
Why handicap yourself starting out when the difference in price is negligible, there's no point of pride in making due for the beginner, just as there's no point in getting the best possible stones to start.

Thank you for saying what I was trying to say in an easy to understand way. Being frugal is one thing. Being cheap for the sake of being cheap doesn't really help when it comes to tools. Sharpening stones are tools.

Brian.

 

[Natlek]

That's impressive, but I'm skeptical. Nothing "eats" hardened m35 and m42, I've ground a lot of blades from those steels.

BTW, you're the only person I've ever seen reference those steels here besides me. :thumbup:

You'll be even more skepitacal if I told you that I manually /I mind with hand and this stones , on file jig / i grind main blade bevel Yes , I like this HSS steel , nothing can beat this beast in the sharpness and stay sharp .............here is one blank , M35 steel ... just today I finished it .I will take a picture tomorrow , still need scale to make .I finally found the easiest way how to drill the holes for the pin , now I need only two minutes for one 8mm hole in 3mm M35

Tomorrow I start with this one ..........

Sorry , wrong picture ..........I do not have picture of that blank

Maybe I should open a topic .......... My way of making knife

PS . BTW you're right, M series steel eats belts like hot cake , that s way i use hand and stone ..........:thumbup:

 

[bucketstove]

...The stone was useless. We tried in on a dull blade he had, using water to help it along and it just seemed to suck the water up and shed grit instantly, almost digging a trench as we went (exaggerating, but that's what it sort of seemed like)....
Brian.

That sounds like you were pressing too hard on a waterstone to me
like you should have used low force, under 3lb or under 1 lb
sounds like a good way to plane down large contact areas

The water sucking issue is easy to solve
"seal" the stone with a vaseline rub
or my preferred method, rub sides/bottom with hand sanitizer, then keep loading from top with dish soap

 

[jpm2]

You'll be even more skepitacal if I told you that I manually /I mind with hand and this stones , on file jig / i grind main blade bevel Yes , I like this HSS steel , nothing can beat this beast in the sharpness and stay sharp .............here is one blank , M35 steel ... just today I finished it .I will take a picture tomorrow , still need scale to make .I finally found the easiest way how to drill the holes for the pin , now I need only two minutes for one 8mm hole in 3mm M35

Tomorrow I start with this one ..........

Sorry , wrong picture ..........I do not have picture of that blank

Maybe I should open a topic .......... My way of making knife

PS . BTW you're right, M series steel eats belts like hot cake , that s way i use hand and stone ..........:thumbup:

Nice looking blank there.
I finish mine by hand also, but after roughing it close on grinders and sanders.
No telling how many hundreds of feet sanding belt I've used making these.
Never found a way to get a hole in mine except to grind it.
Where did you get the steel? Mine were machinist parting tools.
Also, try some T42 if you haven't already.

 

[bgentry]

That sounds like you were pressing too hard on a waterstone to me
like you should have used low force, under 3lb or under 1 lb

This stone wasn't advertised as being a waterstone.

The water sucking issue is easy to solve
"seal" the stone with a vaseline rub
or my preferred method, rub sides/bottom with hand sanitizer, then keep loading from top with dish soap

Really? Is this what you do with all of the dollar store stones you buy? To me this seems like way too much effort. Why not just buy a reasonable stone and be done with it?

We might not be able to see eye to eye on this one. But that's ok.

Brian.

 

[bucketstove]

I used a lot of question marks, thats just cause I talk funny

• HeavyHanded: They glaze rapidly if used dry,
  - bucketstove: You say they also release grit easy, so why is glazing a problem?
  - Lots of stones glaze when used dry
  - they all glaze eventually, its simple to unglaze
  -
• plug rapidly when used with water
  - Is plugging a problem?
  - So when they plug they they don't suck water anymore , they'll float water/oil now?
  - You will have to unclog stones at some point... and if they release grit easy, they wont stay plugged for long?
  -
  -
• shed copiously when used with oil
  - So if you want to unglaze/unplug the stone just use a little oil?
  -
• disintegrate under force or repetition
  - Just like the best waterstones?
  - So use them with less force like a waterstone?
  - Enjoy the benefits of fresh grits all the time (no plugging no glazing)?
  -
• require additional skill to get the most from them.
  - Huh? Which additional skills exactly?
  -
• difference in price is negligible, there's no point of pride in making due for the beginner,
  - Isn't that for the beginner buyer to decide?
  - lots of people take pride in getting a bargain
  - in some places dollar stores have cachet, they are actually fashionable/trendy, and carry more variety than the local stores
  -
• One could do better (depending on location) walking along a stream bed looking for sand and silt stones... exercise... pride
  - depends on a lot of things, if cost is so critical, you don't need the extra exercise and you don't have time to waste, you reach for some pavement or brick around
  - I would personally have to drive/walk past a dozen dollar stores to reach a river/creek
  - its funny/amazing, but in some places it is considered theft to pick up rocks
  -
• Norton Econo stone as a baseline. The newer ones come flat and ready to go
  - not all of them, mine wasn't flat, some report theirs shedding grit too easy ... none of this makes the stone terrible/horrible/handicap, it just requires some maintenance and slight adjustment in how you use them (small amount of knowledge)
  - not all places sell norton stones, the homedepot website doesn't list them anymore , the brick store probably still sells them
  - they're not available everywhere, in some places (europe) the stones cost way more than $20 to acquire, but they still have $1 stones
  -
• bgentry: Thank you for saying what I was trying to say in an easy to understand way. Being frugal is one thing. Being cheap for the sake of being cheap doesn't really help when it comes to tools. Sharpening stones are tools. Brian.
  - Is a skateboard cheap, because it isn't a hoverboard (self-balancing electric scooter)?
  - Its a personal choice/decision right? What is frugal and what is cheap?
  -

 

[bucketstove]

This stone wasn't advertised as being a waterstone.
Really? Is this what you do with all of the dollar store stones you buy? To me this seems like way too much effort. Why not just buy a reasonable stone and be done with it?
We might not be able to see eye to eye on this one. But that's ok.
Brian.

Even the ebay guys advertising it for "19.99" only call it a "sharpening stone" not an oil stone or waterstone, so its true to the advertising

How much effort is too much?
What is a "reasonable stone"?

You mean a reasonable stone like the Norton Economy?
That stones comes porous as well and will need treatment before it will float oil/water on top

The effort is really minimal, it only seems like a lot of effort,
just like sharpening seems like it takes a lot of skill or effort
but it really doesn't, its very easy , slightly easier than actual sharpening

it takes 2 minutes of rubbing to round the corners and knock down any high spots
and the stone is ready for use

similarly takes less than a minute to recondition the stone by rubbing it with a nail/rock... to raise a little slurry

similarly a minute to keep it flat , raise a little slurry or use a little sand, rub against something flat to keep it flat

the reason I load it with dish soap is so I don't have to keep dunking the stone in a bucket
so all it takes is a squirt to keep the stone wet
it also takes way less than a minute to load with dish soap, but you do repeat it a few times

if I used vaseline to seal it like a norton economy it would literally take seconds

if I went the extra step and to soak the vaseline beneath the surface a little
by blasting it with a hair dryer , its up to a minute or two

Yup, we don't have to agree on what gets thumbs up or thumbs down, and thats ok freedom is choice

 

[eKretz]

Maybe because they finish the job ? Each of these stones cost half dollars .You need only to well saturated with water and two minutes after that you have hair popping blade .... Of course after a few strokes on strop
Yes , these cheap stone eat steel like hot cakes .......steel like M2 ,M35 , M42 ...........

Hmm, I disagree thoroughly on this. These lower end stones will not "eat" high speed steels at anything resembling high rates of speed. I even reference your post from the other day:

Quote Originally Posted by Natlek
For three hours I grind by hand bevel in 4 inch long M2 steel blade with ALOx /used water/ .Price of stone is half a dollar ............

While these stones will cut the high speed steels, it is pretty slow going, and diamond is far better suited to the task. The edges left by these cheaper stones on any steel containing carbides leaves much to be desired also - carbides are torn out, leaving the edge much more ragged. Edge retention suffers when this happens.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I used a lot of question marks, thats just cause I talk funny

• HeavyHanded: They glaze rapidly if used dry,
  - bucketstove: You say they also release grit easy, so why is glazing a problem?
  - Lots of stones glaze when used dry
  - they all glaze eventually, its simple to unglaze

• 
  
  Yes, they then have to be lapped. If you're just starting out you might think the problem is with you instead, or your choice of steel. These sorts of concerns needn't be part of the initial learning process.
  -
  

  [*] plug rapidly when used with water
  - Is plugging a problem?
  - So when they plug they they don't suck water anymore , they'll float water/oil now?
  - You will have to unclog stones at some point... and if they release grit easy, they wont stay plugged for long?

  
  No, they won't float any better than before, but now there's nowhere for the swarf or busted abrasive to go but be ground into the stone surface (plugging), soon to cause more issues with glazing (see above).
  
  

  [*]shed copiously when used with oil
  - So if you want to unglaze/unplug the stone just use a little oil?

  
  Yes, and then the stone begins to disintegrate into a muddy lapping block.
  
  
  

  [*]disintegrate under force or repetition
  - Just like the best waterstones?
  - So use them with less force like a waterstone?
  - Enjoy the benefits of fresh grits all the time (no plugging no glazing)?

  
  Good waterstones don't disintegrate under force and repetition, only the poorer performing coarse grit ones do - the kind many prefer to eschew in favor of diamond plates for bevel setting, or a better quality SiC oil stone...
  
  
  

  [*]require additional skill to get the most from them.
  - Huh? Which additional skills exactly?

  
  The experience required to know when your muddy stone is more grinding or more lapping. "Why can't I get a fine edge off of this stone? Why won't it raise a burr? Why didn't I buy a better stone to learn on?!!"
  
  
  

  [*]difference in price is negligible, there's no point of pride in making due for the beginner,
  - Isn't that for the beginner buyer to decide?
  - lots of people take pride in getting a bargain
  - in some places dollar stores have cachet, they are actually fashionable/trendy, and carry more variety than the local stores
  -
  [*]One could do better (depending on location) walking along a stream bed looking for sand and silt stones... exercise... pride
  - depends on a lot of things, if cost is so critical, you don't need the extra exercise and you don't have time to waste, you reach for some pavement or brick around
  - I would personally have to drive/walk past a dozen dollar stores to reach a river/creek
  - its funny/amazing, but in some places it is considered theft to pick up rocks
  -
  [*] Norton Econo stone as a baseline. The newer ones come flat and ready to go
  - not all of them, mine wasn't flat, some report theirs shedding grit too easy ... none of this makes the stone terrible/horrible/handicap, it just requires some maintenance and slight adjustment in how you use them (small amount of knowledge)
  - not all places sell norton stones, the homedepot website doesn't list them anymore , the brick store probably still sells them
  - they're not available everywhere, in some places (europe) the stones cost way more than $20 to acquire, but they still have $1 stones

  
  
  The last one I bought was 100% right out of the package, as was the last ACE stone I bought. The ACE one had another important feature for the added cost equivalent to sandwich and coffee at a local deli - made in USA. Neither needed to be "sealed" with vaseline or anything else to work well.
  I didn't know we were talking about Europe as well - are there "Dollar Stores" in Europe, and if so where are their "dollar stones" made? I'd still recommend buying one from Tyrolit or Foss if the Norton St Gobain is too pricey.

 

[Natlek]

Hmm, I disagree thoroughly on this. These lower end stones will not "eat" high speed steels at anything resembling high rates of speed. I even reference your post from the other day:



While these stones will cut the high speed steels, it is pretty slow going, and diamond is far better suited to the task. The edges left by these cheaper stones on any steel containing carbides leaves much to be desired also - carbides are torn out, leaving the edge much more ragged. Edge retention suffers when this happens.

What can I say ? I do it with this lower and stones /and I do not really have some choice when I buying here Look , my file jig is robust and mount in vise and allows me to use all my weight when I grind ......The only thing I do not work at hand is the initial grind / sharp angle grind to mark centerline of edge/ ...because stone don t like sharp edge . I do not like to waste steel, so from this piece / M35 , https://www.google.com/search?q=M35...X&ved=0ahUKEwim2erd_dfLAhXnNpoKHVcwBukQsAQILA / I made this afternoon this small knife ... cutting ... shaping ... grinding ..... sharpening ...take me one hour . This is a low grind so I use one angle and SIC coarse stone ..for finish and sharpening water and ALOx stone .....When I grind high bevel often I change the angle of grind ....Faster and easier to do . Something like this on picture , it is 2.5mm 440 C steel , 58rc .

The hard part now is to make edge convex ...

Black one is M2 , the other one is M35 ...... 3mm .

 

[deltaboy]

Just get a set of Ark Stones from Soft to Hard to Black.

 

[Easyrider]

I seem to be in the minority here but I have had very good experience with the ceramic benchstones from Spyderco. No need for water or oil just some comet and a scotchbrite pad for clean up afterwards. It works on M2, S30v and S35v as well as some of the more common 154CM, ATS 34 and 1095 blade steels.

They are a little pricy but they should out live me.