STUPID KNIFE LAWS!

M

Mike Turber

Joined
Oct 2, 1998
Messages
5,461
I love Florida for it's great beaches, weather, diving and even it's knife laws.

One stupid law we have is the concealed weapon law. Seems any knife in your pocket is not legal here in Florida regardless of size. No big deal as cops hardly ever enforce it. They normally just add it on as a charge if your caught doing something else.

You can carry anything out in the open. Even a sword if you want!

I know some laws are unfair and are basically BS but are there any really stupid knife and even gun laws you guys (and gals) know about?

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We must be on the same wavelength? That's scary in it's self!

I was in Philadelphia a few years ago and they changed the city law about knives there, NO knives allowed is what the shop keeper told me. Because of a goofy law, one lawyer wanted to make an example of how vague the law was regarding knives, it stated something like, `Single Edge, no length limit, and in plain sight'
So he walked downtown with a saber resting on his shoulder, fully within his rights. Shortly after that they came crushing down with the NO knife law.

So it's funny you mentioned sword as well. spooky, I think I'll go home now....

G2

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If you can't be kind,
at least have the decency to be vague. Stephen Wright

www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Cabin/7306/blades.html

Gillett PA

 
Well!

In my state of New South Wales (in Australia)
it is illegal to carry ANY knife without "a good reason". "Defence" is specifically listed as NOT being an acceptable reason.
It is the responsibility of the possessor to establish the "goodness" of the reason. I think the "profile" of the possessor is an important factor. I have been openly carrying a LM Wave since the law was passed last year. I am a grey-bearded old bloke but a young local man was recently convicted for carrying a SAK in his pocket....he did have a record of violence and drug-dealing. He, actually, admitted, in court, to not having a good reason. Sounds like some kind of deal, to me.

Automatics are completely banned in all states.

There is a Federal law that requires a special permit to import double edged knives.
I recently had an Ek dagger confiscated by Customs. But you can buy double edged knives in stores.....because the importers obtained import permits supported by the State Police Commissioner .

Any knife that is designed to look like something else (walking stick, pen, pencil etc is completely banned.

And our gun laws....?
well, that is off-topic.

This stuff stupid enough, Mike ?

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BrianWE
ICQ #21525343


 
Like Mr. Graley said, I will try to be as vague as possible. To put stupid laws in their place I need to use an off color example, as vague as possible.

All men have another tool that more often gets us into trouble and hurts more people than the knife we carry,or the gun we own.

Should there be legal length limits--
are some too long--
are some too short--
Is length a problem as long as it's not concealed--
Do we need special permits to own certain sizes--
Do we have to prove that we need one--
Should they all be regestered--
Should those who abuse them be allowed to have one--
Should they be allowed in movies--
Should you be allowed to practice with them--

I'm sure that there are plenty more. Maybe some of you can help me out.

John Yeackley
 
John, I'm with you 100% buddy. FWIW, I find that open carry is frowned upon . . . .

As for knives, I got two. First, Illinois. IL has a clause in its law on knife carry that bans a knife with a "dangerous blade." My guess is this means if the cop doesn't like something about you, your blade is dangerous. If he chooses to LET you carry your means of defense, it's "safe."

Monmouth College is the other. I'm a Resident Assistant (kinda like a janitor/mommy/security guard.) This year, several Head Residents had their RA's tell the residents that knives were banned in the dorms. Problem is, knives are NOT banned. The rulebook ("Scots Guide") bans firearms,
frown.gif
fireworks, and CONCEALED WEAPONS. That being the case, I have dutifully stopped wearing my Folts Mantis as a neck knife and instead carry it in my right hand, flashlight in the left. Yeah this tips my hand, but I was hoping to piss people off and make a statement. The sad thing is, no one has yet noticed. Apparently they don't know what the squarish black kydex sheath is, so it doesn't bother them. Oh well, small blessings and all that.

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"It is not criminals who enter schools and shoot children . . ."
--Ann Pearston, British gun control apologist and Moron
 
Here in Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love, a well-known news writer was stabbed near an ATM machine the other knight. The perp used a 3" to 4" blade and the victim was very unlucky. So, regardless of the laws on the books, a few fine folks will have and use whatever implement they choose.

A thought:

"When mores are sufficient, laws are unnecessary,
When mores are insufficient, laws are unenforceable."

Emil Durkheim
 
I don't really have any examples, but I do think that California is in the top 5 for stupid knife laws.
What sucks is that when I retire from the service I plan to move back there, somewhere near Marin County. I have no intention of giving up any of my blades or to stop carrying, only now I will have to do so discreetly as I have taken to carrying a FB now.



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The vague and tenuous hope that GOD is too kind to punish the ungodly has become a deadly opiate for the conscience of millions.

*A. W. Tozer

2 Cor 5:10
 
The Golden State is pretty out there, alright. No automatics or concealed fixed blade, but you can carry a Sword under your coat if it folds in the middle and opens manually.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA


 
I think any law, knife law or other wise, that inhibits what a law abiding American does, owns, or carries is not only stupid, but down right disgusting!!!!!!!!!!

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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
One gun law that I never understood is this: I have a CCP and it allows me to carry any gun conceiled. BUT, it has to be in a holster. So while I can wear a shoulder rig, I couldn't just stick one in my coat pocket, unless it was in a holster before it went into my coat pocket.
Another obscurity is that while your car is considered an extension of your home and thus you do not need a CCP in your vehicle, you have to put the gun into the glove compartment (unless you have aformentioned CCP, in which case you can have it on your person in a holster. Well, I had a SIG P220, which was too large to fit into the glove compartment. So I stuck it in the console between the seats. During a routine traffic stop, the officer about blew a gasket about the placement of the gun. Mind you, I kept my hands on the wheel until he approached the vehicle, notified him of the weapon in the vehicle and I have a CCP. I don't know, but if I were a police officer, I'd much rather see the gun laying somewhere, than guessing if one is conceiled on a person.
 
One peculiarity I find extremely odd is the at least here in Oregon one "shall be" issued a concealed carry permit unless good cause is shown why it should be denied.

Therefore one can, with little hassle, carry say a Beretta 92FS with a 15 round mag and six back-up thirty rounders if they remain out of sight, or one could carry a big bore IMI hunting revolver on his person with a range of the better fraction of a mile, but one cannot carry a concealed fixed blade knife or automatic, CCW permitholder or not.

So one is allowed to be as "fully armed" as one can manage with proper concealment, but one cannot legally conceal a "lesser" weapon in terms of mass lethality or range. It seems to me the authorities and law makers would want to encourage people to carry knives rather than firearms if they are wooried about such things yet want to let people have the reassurance of being armed in the face of trouble.

Oh well. I just "dress down" to an HKP7M8 instead of any fixed blade knife if I am feeling the need to be very unobtrusively armed.

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Never confuse movement with action.

Ernest Hemingway
 
Gwinny -

IL law only defines what a dangerous knife is (BL > 3"), and defines what constitues the offense of "Illegal Use of a Dangerouse Weapon" (Carrying the previously defined dangerous weapon with the intent to use it as a weapon, or boarding a plane with said weapon).

So provided your intent is not to use your knife BL > 3" as a weapon (for defense...), it is perfectly legal to carry it concealed. Unfortunately, the determination of intent often needs to be made by a court, after you have been arrested, booked, and processed. Additionally, many cities and/or counties (CHICAGO!) may have their own ordinances restricting carry.

So that said, if you want to be legally safe in IL, carry a BL < 3" knife. In any case, be ready to explain why you have the knife, avoiding the words "defense" or "protection" like they are the kiss of death. Don't give the nice LEO a reason to WANT you in trouble, and you won't BE in trouble...

This is my own, non-lawyer interpretation. Don't rely on my semi-demented ramblings to keep yer butt out of jail.
 
In my mostly California-oriented compilation of knife law information and rants, "Is That Knife Legal?" I have collected a bunch of appellate cases on what makes a sharp object a "dirk or dagger." One common theme is that the knife or other pointed thing got into the legal system when the appellant told the cop that he was carring it "for protection."

Never tell any authority figure who asks you about your knife that you are carrying it "for protection"! That means, of course, having some other explanation for it that you can utter with a straight face and even, at least in part, truthfully. This might be difficult, of course, with the legendary "nine-inch double-barbed Rambotron Ninja Deathmonger."

As for dumb knife laws, if I mentioned any switchblade law in this crowd I would merely be preaching to the choir.

But we shouldn't be surprised that there are dumb knife laws. Knives are primal. Knives are the core technology that makes it possible for us to be humans and not rather awkward and ill-adapted (and probably extinct) apes. Everything else we have that we cannot find as-is in nature depends on a knife somewhere in its chain of creation. Knives are also the smallest and weakest of the traditional weapons of war, whose only tactical advantage against swords and spears and such is stealth.

With anything as primal and powerful as a knife, we should not be surprised to find it surrounded by myth and superstition and taboo.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001


[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 09 December 1999).]
 
My nomination is the California law that makes mere possession of a lipstick knife a felony. Stupid is not the right word to describe that law ... I can't see any way stupidity could have made a legislator vote for that law. I think that shows whose side they're on.

-Cougar Allen :{)

Come to California -- the Rapist's Paradise!
 
John Yeackley, your take on the subject certainly fits well within the Penal Code, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't something like that in place now!

G2

------------------
If you can't be kind,
at least have the decency to be vague. Stephen Wright

www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Cabin/7306/blades.html

Gillett PA

 
Actually, John, it is illegal for you to carry your tool unconcealled. The right to bare arms only goes so far.
 
I think one of the concealed weapon laws in California reads something like:
A dagger or Dirk is anything readily available for stabbing or to inflict harm or death by cutting.
It is or has been enforced. I read an article about some poor guy getting prosecuted for carrying a spyderco rescue( not sure on that, it had a fully serrated sheepsfoot blade)I think he finally got off the hook after an apeal and wasn't in trouble for anything else.The first judge found him guilty saying something about how easily you could flick the knife open.I think thats going a little to far.Making all weapons illegal means only criminals have them and that makes good people helpless.Not to say that a little control is bad I don't want to see anyone carrying rocket launchers around.

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Fix it right the first time, use Baling Wire !
 
California's definition of a "dirk or dagger" in Section 12020 of the Penal COde is:

(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.
Click to expand...

http://www.chaicutlery.com/12020.html

Note that it says nothing about cutting, slashing, tearing, hacking, chopping, etcetera. Only stabbing. A bread knife with a blunt point is not a "dirk or dagger," even when carried by a guy who is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic, who says he he carried it "for protection":
www.chaicutlery.com/knifelaw/people_v_barrios.html

The trial record indicated that the "poor guy" who got prosecuted for a sheepsfoot-bladed Spyderco (it was a Mariner) as a "concealed dirk or dagger" was accosted by law enforcement under very suspicious circumstances, and may well have been "up to no good." But he wasn't charged with being up to no good. I got involved with that one because his lawyer was a tax client of ours, and I gave his lawyer the leads to get the "legislative intent" material up in front of the appellate division of the LA Superior Court to get the conviction thrown out because the knife was a folder in its folded condition. The blunt point would have been a second line of defense. That case was "exhibit A" in getting the Legislature to put the pocket knife exemption in the black letter statute.

The The CA definition is still very broad indeed. If your fixed blade utility knife that you are not carrying "for protection" becomes an issue in a California court, the case you want to use in your favor, to make the knife a non-dagger on account of your peaceful purposes, is:
The People v. William S. Oskins[69 Cal. App.4th 126]

No warranty. Your mileage may vary.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001


[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 10 December 1999).]
 
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