Substandard quenchants

So if someone uses oils that are vegetable based which oils could be used for fast quenching and slow quenching?
 
The vegetable oils in general have been found to be more comparable to the fast petroleum oils than the slower ones. For slower quenching the petroleum oils are inherently better suited, but can be accelerated. However, some vegetable oils are a bit faster and slower than each other and there are also a few ways to slow them down, speed them up and enhance their stability.

For specifics on speed, quench severity factors, heat-transfer coefficients and stuff like that of the various vegetable oils that have been studied, you’ll probably need to refer to the studies themselves, unless someone else knows right off hand... I think soy bean and corn oils might be a bit faster than canola, but you'd have to check on that.
 
Why with all the money invested in materials and your time would you not purchase an oil designed to give you the best chance to get the most from the steel your working? Why are not industries using veggie oils if they are just as good or acceptable? I experimented for a year or so with peanut oil but after saving the money to purchase the specific speed quenchant that I needed for the steel being used I was able to get a much better hardening as told by the RC files.
 
In high volume industrial applications the petroleum based engineered quenching fluids are less expensive over time than the un-stabilized vegetable oils. So, the question is, why won't they spend a bit more time and money to develop and utilize a more earth friendly quenching medium?

Simply put, aside from the other considerations,... the medium and the steel (or part being quenched) need to be suited to each other for good results, with either.
 
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Erratus Animus said:
Why with all the money invested in materials and your time would you not purchase an oil designed to give you the best chance to get the most from the steel your working? Why are not industries using veggie oils if they are just as good or acceptable? I experimented for a year or so with peanut oil but after saving the money to purchase the specific speed quenchant that I needed for the steel being used I was able to get a much better hardening as told by the RC files.
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A fair amount of research has been linked on this forum in the past to canola oil being used as a quenchant. We really know very little about Parks quechants and are still waiting for MSDS sheets to show up and information on how extensively is it really used in industry. Obviously Parks is a great quenchant but how much is is actually used in large industries as a quenchant? What quenchant is the steel industry and manufacturer actually using? I have not seen anything about that.

It would be great to actually see a comparison of Parks quenchants against several others.

Canola does work if you know what to do with the steel you are using. Parks works great. But it sure would be nice to see some data sheets and research on Parks just so we know why it is "Better" as some say.
 
Both valid point and please understand that I am asking why and not trying to ruffle any feathers.
 
Both valid point and please understand that I am asking why and not trying to ruffle any feathers.
 
I personally use petroleum based quench oils because I live in the American mid west and have witnessed the horrible damage farming such things as Canola have done to the great America praires and native grasses. The damage to the original ecology is tremendous. We must stop now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10 million years from now when a spin piece of debris from a super nova star slams into this Earth and it might a lifeless husk because we farmed it over the edge of its abilities to produce that one more gallon of Canola that pushed it over the edge I don't want to be responsible.
 
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ib2v4u said:
I personally use petroleum based quench oils because I live in the American mid west and have witnessed the horrible damage farming such things as Canola have done to the great America praires and native grasses. The damage to the original ecology is tremendous. We must stop now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10 million years from now when a spin piece of debris from a super nova star slams into this Earth and it might a lifeless husk because we farmed it over the edge of its abilities to produce that one more gallon of Canola that pushed it over the edge I don't want to be responsible.
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Wow! Maybe we should get rid of farming altogether... just don't let the farmers here us say that. ;)
 
ib2v4u said:
10 million years from now when a spin piece of debris from a super nova star slams into this Earth and it might a lifeless husk because we farmed it over the edge of its abilities to produce that one more gallon of Canola that pushed it over the edge I don't want to be responsible.
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What?
I mean...what?:confused:
 
Heres a newb curve ball....how bout Co2?? I've got access to tons of liquid Co2.

Now I know when cooling, there are cooling speeds that you have to take into account, and using a super cold liquid such as Co2, it could be near impossible to do by guess work. I ask because 'air cooling' wan mentioned. I take it thats just cool air cooling, not cold vapor ( like Co2 or Nos ) cooling?

And thnaks for the link Daniel ...YAY more reading :)
 
Interesting stuff so far can the folks who use veggy oils tell me how the clean up is after quench compared to the other quenchants?
 
Sarcastic point was that farming to replace our petrol and petrol chemical needs is not really that ecologically friendly and all the petroleum needed to produce the quench oil needs of the knife making industry is so infinitesimal in the view of the worlds total use as to be way less of an issue than the damage that occurs from farming. If you used Canola and replaced it every coupe years the petroleum used to farm and produce that canola would be greater than used by someone using petrol based quench for 10. Especially when viewed in the long term. This planet might be a lifeless rock in the future for a lot of reasons the least of which is what I use to quench my knife steel.:rolleyes:

Plus, as one who believes that every thing is related and every action creates a ripple in the balance who is to know what small action on ones part may finally sent everything spiraling out of control. But, then in the long run it is all mute because eventually this planet will be winked out by far more powerful forces anyway.:eek:

Mostly I was giving Tai a poke in the ribs. :D
 
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It’s a widely accepted fact, that the long term negative ecological impact of using vegetable oil based quenchants is, or would be, less than the petroleum based oils. It’s the lesser of the evils.
 
Tai Goo said:
If used properly, the engineered fluids will last longer than the grocery store bought vegetable oils, but with a greater initial cash outlay. Canola is often the veggy of choice because it has good stability compared to some of the other vegetable oils, although some are a bit faster or slower.
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Based on the average cost of canola oil per gallon (which is likely to be going up a decent amount in the next year due to the particular dry and harsh summer we had) along with the fact that my engineered quenchant will out last it several times over and then some, (not to even factor in consistency), I'd say that while it does have an initially higher outlay of cost, in the long run it is not only cheaper per gallon, but arguably more ecologically/environmentally friendly in the long run as well (assuming proper disposal of course). In fact, my 11 year old car probably has a harder impact on the environment, driving back and forth from the grocery store to get the stuff, than my 5 gallons of parks 50 ever will.

Tai Goo said:
Does crude oil just jump out of the ground and land in your quench tank as Parks #50? Does your diner cook itself?

We need to look towards the future, and I’m confident that one day we will look back on petroleum based quenching fluids as being archaic and barbaric. I for one don’t want to be lumped in with that crowd die hards.
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I've got to imagine that there are several millions (if not billions) of gallons more of canola, peanut, vegatable oils (etc...) produced (through less than "green" measures) each year then there ever will be of Parks 50. I could be wrong, so don't quote me.

Tai Goo said:
In high volume industrial applications the petroleum based engineered quenching fluids are less expensive over time than the un-stabilized vegetable oils. So, the question is, why won't they spend a bit more time and money to develop and utilize a more earth friendly quenching medium?

Simply put, aside from the other considerations,... the medium and the steel (or part being quenched) need to be suited to each other for good results, with either.
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See above.

I don't thing industrial petroleum based quenchants are used based on cost (alone), but more on consistency and quality.
 
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Tai Goo said:
Steel itself may eventually become obsolete, water and oil steels being the first to go... At best, all we may be able to do is keep an art/craft and tradition alive… if not already.

Bladesmithing as we know it, has more to do with culture and/or subcultures than science.

Oddly enough, history shows that things like culture, society, politics and economics, generally dictate over pure science… what is acceptable, ethical, practical etc., and what isn’t.
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Speaking as someone who works for the largest steel producing company in the world, I can assure you that is no immediate (or even longterm) risk of being phased out. Especially with so much steel already in existence. It may also be worth noting that steel production is relatively "green", as about 90+% of the waste creasted by the manufacturing process (as well as end product user waste) can actually be put back into it.
 
Question....

What is the live span of Parks 50?

And how can you tell when it needs to be changed?

What does the data sheet say?
 
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