SUCCESS!! Difficulty Dismounting Kai Gunto

[The Zieg]

This Japanese naval sword came to me from a WWII veteran's widow many years after his death. She was downsizing her home and knew I was a collector of historical and edged things. I have read up a great deal on the history of Japanese swords but less so about the practical aspects of their later construction.

Seeing posts here about mei engravings on the nakago, I have two questions: 1. Given that I have never been able to dismount the blade (I can tap out the mekugi but the tsuka will not budge), what suggestions do the experts give to loosen it? and 2. Is it worthwhile to do this given the age and likely value of the sword and the possibility of damaging these parts (i.e., should I leave well enough alone)?

Things I would like to learn by seeing the tang and sharing images here but am not exactly losing sleep over: Manufacture specifics such as date, maker, region. Note that this is not a burning issue for me. I have had this sword for about twenty years.

 

[SimplyMinded]

There's a method where you hold the sword a certain way and give it a sharp rap or something similar to get those off but I forget how to do it. Any serial numbers? It might be a factory made blade.

 

[The Zieg]

There's a method where you hold the sword a certain way and give it a sharp rap or something similar to get those off but I forget how to do it. Any serial numbers? It might be a factory made blade.

No serial numbers on the sword or the scabbard. I will post more and better images when I return from travel.

 

[NihontoEd]

Only you can decide if you want to remove the Tsuka, I can tell you how. Should only be one peg, but check it closely as occasionally you run across two. Though I suspect if you have had it that long you would know (just being safe). The tsuka was made to remove but after many years they can become stuck in the saya from corrosion, etc.

Key words to remember: Safety (Sharp) and Gently (prevent damage).
You will need a couple of old soft towels and a small rubber mallet.
They make a tool for this but this method will work.
Remove Mekugi peg.
Fold one towel 3-4 times and place on table. This towel is to prevent the tsuka from falling onto the table or floor and damaging either.
Wrap the other towel around the sword blade and hold it with the tip up and the Kabuchi gane (pommel) only a couple of inches above the first towel.
Gently tap the tsuba as close to the blade as possible. Alternate from side to side until the tsuka become loose and slides off.
Easy peasy!

Careful not to let the tsuka fall completely off along with the tsuba and seppa. Retain their order and direction for replacement.

 

[NihontoEd]

There's a method where you hold the sword a certain way and give it a sharp rap or something similar to get those off but I forget how to do it. Any serial numbers? It might be a factory made blade.

Yes, but occasionally they are stuck. Especially these military swords which have been in their koshirae since WWII. Time, corrosion and/or dried cosmoline and crud sometimes has them imbedded tightly.

The method you mention is to hold the tsuka at an angle with your non-dominant had and strike your fist (see photos) with your dominant hand to release the sword.

 

[The Zieg]

Only you can decide if you want to remove the Tsuka, I can tell you how. Should only be one peg, but check it closely as occasionally you run across two. Though I suspect if you have had it that long you would know (just being safe). The tsuka was made to remove but after many years they can become stuck in the saya from corrosion, etc.

Key words to remember: Safety (Sharp) and Gently (prevent damage).
You will need a couple of old soft towels and a small rubber mallet.
They make a tool for this but this method will work.
Remove Mekugi peg.
Fold one towel 3-4 times and place on table. This towel is to prevent the tsuka from falling onto the table or floor and damaging either.
Wrap the other towel around the sword blade and hold it with the tip up and the Kabuchi gane (pommel) only a couple of inches above the first towel.
Gently tap the tsuba as close to the blade as possible. Alternate from side to side until the tsuka become loose and slides off.
Easy peasy!

Careful not to let the tsuka fall completely off along with the tsuba and seppa. Retain their order and direction for replacement.

Great instructions! Thank you! I'm assuming I should make no contact with the fuchi (collar)? Is it a bad idea to secure the blade in a vise?

 

[NihontoEd]

Great instructions! Thank you! I'm assuming I should make no contact with the fuchi (collar)? Is it a bad idea to secure the blade in a vise?

The fuchi will be underneath the tsuba if held with the kissaki up. The seppa will be against the face of the fuchi.

Unless you are referring to the habaki? If so, the side profile is too thin for the rubber mallet to hit. But try not to strike the habaki directly, but as near the habaki as possible to prevent leverage on the tsuba.

You could use a vise, but protect the blade from the jaws and know when the tsuka comes free it may hit the floor if you are not ready. That is why I prefer to hold it only a couple of inches above a soft surface. Also, when holding it with your hand your can act as a shock absorber, flexing with the gentle blows where a vise will not.

 

[The Zieg]

The fuchi will be underneath the tsuba if held with the kissaki up. The seppa will be against the face of the fuchi.

Unless you are referring to the habaki? If so, the side profile is too thin for the rubber mallet to hit. But try not to strike the habaki directly, but as near the habaki as possible to prevent leverage on the tsuba.

You could use a vise, but protect the blade from the jaws and know when the tsuka comes free it may hit the floor if you are not ready. That is why I prefer to hold it only a couple of inches above a soft surface. Also, when holding it with your hand your can act as a shock absorber, flexing with the gentle blows where a vise will not.

I did indeed mean the habaki. Thanks for the correction! All this makes sense and I'm going to consider the project over the next few weeks. I'll keep folks updated.

 

[horseclover]

A wood or plastic mallet and drive against the seppa next to the habaki with a wood splint or proper nuki that drives against the seppa, instead of levering and breaking/damaging a tsuba. You can chisel out a groove, to straddle the blade and strike close to the habaki. I see tutes using rubber mallets on rocking tsuba. That's wasting energy. It also cracks tuska. As straight line as you can. Like chasing a bearing race down a shaft with a punch and hammer.

Mr. Natural says "Use the right tool for the job"

wrap/clamp as felt needed

iirc, Keith Larman used to relate simple steps with just a cloth, mallet and nuki.

Per Kieth Larman, in simple terms, strap the nuki on the blade (third hand) "sharp raps", catch kashirae.

Cheers
GC

 

[NihontoEd]

A wood or plastic mallet and drive against the seppa next to the habaki with a wood splint or proper nuki that drives against the seppa, instead of levering and breaking/damaging a tsuba. You can chisel out a groove, to straddle the blade and strike close to the habaki. I see tutes using rubber mallets on rocking tsuba. That's wasting energy. It also cracks tuska. As straight line as you can. Like chasing a bearing race down a shaft with a punch and hammer.

Mr. Natural says "Use the right tool for the job"

wrap/clamp as felt needed

iirc, Keith Larman used to relate simple steps with just a cloth, mallet and nuki.

Per Kieth Larman, in simple terms, strap the nuki on the blade (third hand) "sharp raps", catch kashirae.

Cheers
GC

Yes, That is the tool I mention previously. Not sure where to get one these days, Namikawa maybe ??

 

[The Zieg]

Great replies!! Thanks! I'm still away but I am intrigued to see what awaits if I remove the tsuka.

 

[Triton]

A wood or plastic mallet and drive against the seppa next to the habaki with a wood splint or proper nuki that drives against the seppa, instead of levering and breaking/damaging a tsuba. You can chisel out a groove, to straddle the blade and strike close to the habaki. I see tutes using rubber mallets on rocking tsuba. That's wasting energy. It also cracks tuska. As straight line as you can. Like chasing a bearing race down a shaft with a punch and hammer.

Mr. Natural says "Use the right tool for the job"

wrap/clamp as felt needed

iirc, Keith Larman used to relate simple steps with just a cloth, mallet and nuki.

Per Kieth Larman, in simple terms, strap the nuki on the blade (third hand) "sharp raps", catch kashirae.

Cheers
GC

Miss that guy.

 

[horseclover]

Yes, That is the tool I mention previously. Not sure where to get one these days, Namikawa maybe ??View attachment 2724520View attachment 2724521

The image I used is from a Japanese site wanting a 12 PC minimum but offers all the advice as well.

 

[The Zieg]

Months later I have finally gotten the blade out of the tsuka. I have several questions:

1. Inscription:

What can you tell us illiterates about the mei, NihontoEd ?

Other side:

2. Inside the tsuka is fabric that seems to have been used to wrap the nakago in order to tighten the fit. Is this customary?

3. Pics of the blade are difficult without a better camera, so I'll see what I can do in days to come. Any suggestions for getting better pics of the edge, the flats, and other areas that would inform us about this sword?

4. Two holes in the tang?

5. Is this even a legit WWII sword?

And, of course, anything anyone wants to know so I can help the story. Thanks!!

 

[NihontoEd]

Your sword is signed: Hizen no Kuni Tada Uji 忠氏

It is an odd mei and most likely gimei.

My rationale for the gimei call is based on several reasons.

This mei spurred my interest as I have never seen a Hizen Tadauji or Tadashige. So, before answering I broke out a few books and what I found seems to support what I thought.

The Hizen group of swordsmiths descended from Hizen Tadayoshi 忠吉. They all used the Hizen no Kuni prefix or some variation of that in their mei.

There were a few other Tadayoshi from different locations such as Sagami, Owari, Suruga, etc., who using different kanji for Yoshi such as 義, 善.
Also Tadashige 重 (Satsuma, not Hizen)
None of these used the Hizen no Kuni prefix.

As for the other questions:

Never seen the nakago itself wrapped in cloth. If there is anything written on it, it could be some sort of surrender tag, but not customary.

Two mekugi ana or more are not uncommon. It is evidence of the sword being remounted at some point. The unsigned side looks to have cleaned or over cleaned at some point.

Based on these two photos I think the probability is good that this may be gendaito or older is good opposed to WWII effort Showato.

Is it in Gunto mounts?

 

[The Zieg]

Your sword is signed: Hizen no Kuni Tadashige 忠茂

It is an odd mei and most likely gimei.

My rationale for the gimei call is based on several reasons.

This mei spurred my interest as I have never seen a Hizen Tadashige. So, before answering I broke out a few books and what I found seems to support what I thought.

The Hizen group of swordsmiths descended from Hizen Tadayoshi 忠吉. They all used the Hizen no Kuni prefix or some variation of that in their mei.

There were a few other Tadayoshi from different locations such as Sagami, Owari, Suruga, etc., who using different kanji for Yoshi such as 義, 善. However, they didn’t use the Hizen no Kuni prefix.

As for the other questions:

Never seen the nakago itself wrapped in cloth. If there is anything written on it, it could be some sort of surrender tag, but not customary.

Two mekugi ana or more are not uncommon. It is evidence of the sword being remounted at some point. The unsigned side looks to have cleaned or over cleaned at some point.

Based on these two photos I think the probability is good that this may be gendaito or older is good opposed to WWII effort Showato.

Is it in Gunto mounts?

Thanks for this info! We are lucky to have you here!! The mounts are as above in the first pic in the thread. I have assumed it is a kai gunto as it is identical to every one I have seen online.

So as gimei, this indicates it was "falsely signed" in order to dupe a buyer? Would this have been done prior to its issue as a naval sword and thus the second mekugi ana?

 

[NihontoEd]

Apologies, there are a couple of things I need to add/correct. I woke up this morning with something nagging at my subconscious about this. It dawned on me the last character in your mei looks closer to Uji 氏, than Shige 茂. Although still gimei (false) I have corrected my first reply to say it is signed Tadauji as I believe it is the correct reading.

It doesn't change much in the big picture as the probability of gimei is still around 99% based on the fact there are no listed Tadauji or Tadashige, using either of these characters.
___________
The first photo doesn't show the saya, so I can only assume it is standard Kai Gunto. The Tsuba and seppa look correct, but the Tsuka has been poorly re-wrapped.

Gimei means falsly signed. This is was a very common practice and is seen more than most realize. All it really means, is that the sword would not paper.
The mei looks pre-war to me based on those photos. The newer mekugi ana was likely added to remount it into the current mounts, although it is possible it was done earlier and the mounts made to fit the blade.

Another indication that it is pre-war and not showato is there is no arsenal stamp seen on the nakago that I can see. Correct me if that is wrong.

Sorry, for the inconvenience, I should not have rushed.

 

[The Zieg]

Apologies, there are a couple of things I need to add/correct. I woke up this morning with something nagging at my subconscious about this. It dawned on me the last character in your mei looks closer to Uji 氏, than Shige 茂. Although still gimei (false) I have corrected my first reply to say it is signed Tadauji as I believe it is the correct reading.

It doesn't change much in the big picture as the probability of gimei is still around 99% based on the fact there are no listed Tadauji or Tadashige, using either of these characters.
___________
The first photo doesn't show the saya, so I can only assume it is standard Kai Gunto. The Tsuba and seppa look correct, but the Tsuka has been poorly re-wrapped.

Gimei means falsly signed. This is was a very common practice and is seen more than most realize. All it really means, is that the sword would not paper.
The mei looks pre-war to me based on those photos. The newer mekugi ana was likely added to remount it into the current mounts, although it is possible it was done earlier and the mounts made to fit the blade.

Another indication that it is pre-war and not showato is there is no arsenal stamp seen on the nakago that I can see. Correct me if that is wrong.

Sorry, for the inconvenience, I should not have rushed.
View attachment 2857541

No worry! This is great information! I do not see any arsenal stamp or marks anywhere else on the blade or on the saya (below).

I acquired this sword from a close family friend, the widow of a WWII vet, in the early 2000s. It was in a Charlotte NC attic for decades, had been forgotten until she was cleaning up. She thought of me, being a knife/sword guy, and it showed up in the mail. But did he take it from a Japanese officer? Pick it out of one of those surrender hoards? Trade for it in theater at war's end? No. Stan was in the ETO. Fought at Anzio, stayed in Italy until the German surrender, and never transferred to the Pacific. Stayed in Italy to demobilize B-24 bombers. So where did the sword come from? I'll never know. I'm just interested in it as the relic it is, absent any story.

 

[NihontoEd]

That was very kind of his wife. You will never know for certain how he came about it. He may have bought from some GI who needed money for the cat house. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, you have it, it is a descent sword. Keep it oiled and enjoy it. If you ever wish to have the tsuka rewrapped traditionally, let me know.

The Japanese family probably had this sword, which to them was an heirloom. They probably didn't know it was gimei, didn't care, they simply wanted their boy to carry his family blade to battle in hopes it would help him return safely. Kind of sad to think about how many times that scenario took place.

The first sword I ever owned (40 years ago) was a Vet bring back. It was a Muromachi period sword also in Kai Gunto Mounts and I still have it.

Thinking about that over time resulted in my writing this Haiku poem about 30 years ago:
Young soldier goes off to war.
The sword returns,
His bones remain on a distant shore.

 

[The Zieg]

That was very kind of his wife. You will never know for certain how he came about it. He may have bought from some GI who needed money for the cat house. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, you have it, it is a descent sword. Keep it oiled and enjoy it. If you ever wish to have the tsuka rewrapped traditionally, let me know.

The Japanese family probably had this sword, which to them was an heirloom. They probably didn't know it was gimei, didn't care, they simply wanted their boy to carry his family blade to battle in hopes it would help him return safely. Kind of sad to think about how many times that scenario took place.

The first sword I ever owned (40 years ago) was a Vet bring back. It was a Muromachi period sword also in Kai Gunto Mounts and I still have it.

Thinking about that over time resulted in my writing this Haiku poem about 30 years ago:
Young soldier goes off to war.
The sword returns,
His bones remain on a distant shore.

Beautiful haiku! And your Muromachi is quite old, is it not? 14th to 16th centuries? I would love to have this sword restored at some point.