Suggestions on how do you know when........

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Dixieblade57

Joined
Jun 20, 2007
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I am looking for suggestions/thoughts/feedback, on how too approach an upcoming project. Without giving too much away, (as I do not like to talk about upcoming knives till I actually get one under way). I have a knife in mind to build. I know some of you take a lot of time in the idea of a knife and sometimes I do too. However this is one of those ideas that hit me and I can visualize the whole project from beginning to end. When one like this hits I usually grab paper and pen and throw down a sketch! That drawing kind of insures the original idea doesn't get away from me. Now often I may refine the sketch before it is taken form idea to actual knife and as we all know sometimes things just need to beg to be tweaked along the way.

I still consider myself a beginner at this and, life seems to have a big way of getting in the way of my actual knife making. I make knives because I enjoy it and it is a chance to recoup some of the money I put out and maybe one day will lead to making a little money! LOL

However I have the confidence that I will be able to do the knife to a quality finish. It is the artwork for the handle that I am at question about!!! One thing that does worry me is that is will made from 1080, which will be period correct for this knife. However I know how some feel about plain carbon steel knives and I worry that this maybe a problem later when it comes to sale.:confused: Note: this would have been a piece that a gentleman who had some money back then and had the knife special made for himself, so the 1080 steel fits the period!!!!!!!!!!!!! However you know how fickled folks can be about the steel a knife is made from!:grief:

Anyway back to the subject at hand or the question. This knife I have in mind is going to require some artwork too embellish the handle. I am thinking either a scrimshaw if I go with a bone handle, or I am leaning more towards wood at the moment so I would be talking engraving for that!

So here is the clarification I need to make and then the questions. First I use to draw a lot years ago and sometimes I thought I was pretty good at it but like I said that was years ago and drawing is not scrimshaw. Also I have done some wood carving but not a lot, and do not have the confidence in my work to tackle what I have in mind for this handle.

As mentioned this handle will require carving/scrimshaw and coloration/highlighting to make it stand out like I have in mind. I already know a few folks who do excellent work like that but have never asked any what king of prices they charge for such a service!

How do you know when you are ready for a collaboration on a knife, and how do you approach it?

I don't have this piece sold it will be completely a speculation piece! I can foresee it selling well but what is that old saying about, "best laid plans". I can foresee a fairly good investment on my part with the artwork on the handle and then what if I can't get it sold. I am not able to sit for long and have a bunch of money tied up. All I know is I don't have enough confidence in ability to lay down the artwork and get it right!

So I guess what I am asking is the more experienced guys how did you get that first piece with embellishment from concept to actual knife?

Did you just jump in with both feet or approach someone for a cost on the embellishment work?

Have you ever gotten burned on a piece like that, in other word afterward even though it looked good it wouldn't sell?

I usually do all my own work in house on my knives but this one I don't see it working that way and that is what has got me questioning this whole project beginning to end! I am open for all thoughts, comments, and feedback on this subject!
 
Holy wall of text Batman.

I'd say you are ready for a collaboration when you have a knife in mind that requires skills or tools you may never have, but can pull off the rest of the work to a level that won't detract from the other parties contribution. ie don't put carved ivory on a blade that looks like it was gnawed out by blind beavers. lol
 
Wow, a 112 views and not but one piece of advice on this subject, and I must thank him!

I am some what disappointed. I have tried to lay this scenario out so it didn't seem like some rambling newbie with no idea what he is doing and I certainly hope it did not come across that way!
That's what the role of the more experienced knife makers on this forum is in my opinion, but that's my opinion. I always try to share and comment on a subject if I feel I have enough knowledge to steer anyone in the right direction. However if not I will tell them and at least maybe recommend someone who has knowledge in that area!

I guess this piece has me nervous for several reasons. One it's not pre-sold, two the choice of steel may make a difference in the saleability of the knife( for some), three I have never had a knife before where I had to pay someone else to do work on it for me! I am not even sure exactly how two folks come to an agreement on a collaboration piece. I would assume that most of the time, I do my thing and then send it out to them to do their thing and at the end of that they would expect to be paid!!!! Leaving me sitting on all the cost till I sell. I have to say that sounds a little scary if I got as good as idea as too what I think, this scrimshaw or carving on this handle is going to cost me!

Any advice comments or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
 
My thought would be to first get a price on the scrim or carving.Then be honest with youself if your knife would bring what you want plus the cost of the artwork.If you can't outright say yes then you may end up sitting on it till the right buyer comes along.Name mean alot and maybe the artist is well enough known to help your sale,but it could be a crap shoot.
Just my thoughts.

Stan
 
Don't overwhelm your self like I do myself sometimes just do what you can with what you have and you will be amazed with the product you produce!
 
Dixieblade57 said:
Wow, a 112 views and not but one piece of advice on this subject, and I must thank him!

I am some what disappointed.

Any advice comments or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
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If I said any more about it it would be blind leading the blind lol, But I feel ya man, Like I said in my thread asking for advice, this site is 99% browsers .5% horn blowers and then one or two guys who if they stumble into your thread will help. Kinda sad on a site this big, I'm not used to that mentality on forums but don't know what we can do about it, except not be hypocrites about it. Post something positive whenever possible. Good luck with your idea.

ETA, As I think about it, I guess I am in a similar situation to yours. I am currently looking at buying some expensive Damascus. Right now I have little trouble selling knives I make for enough money to make 3-4 more knives. That's about all I want right now, I see it as sorta a paid education lol. But if I spend 200-300$ in materials??? There is very little reason to expect I would sell a knife for 3-4 times that. So, If I do it, It will be with the understanding that I am probably making a knife for myself, or as a gift, or possibly sell it at no profit just to turn it over and get the money back to make another knife.

I think that is probably what you are looking at with your idea too. (Although I could be wrong, I havn't seen any of your Knives yet and you might be making stuff that is worth big money)

Ricky
 
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Not to not-pick, and I could be wrong, but I don't necessarily call what you are contemplating a collaboration. I consider a collaboration when both parties have put shared ideas into a project and have a financial stake in it. So, if it's not a collaboration then just value it at your cost like you would the price of outsourcing the heat treating or the cost of scale material. Find some prices as Stan has said and up your sales price by at least that much. Would you be willing to then pay for that knife at your asking price?

Make sure you get permission from the person you outsource it to to credit them for their work. If you can't get the permission then simply use a generic term when listing the item for sale (scrimshaw craftsman). What I mean is don't take credit for work you didn't do. I know you wouldn't but I just thought to clarify.
 
Well first let me say thanks to those who have responded here!

I guess I am looking for some kind of reassurances and I am now realizing that those reassurances must come from within myself!

The project is doable and it will look great if I can get the final product to the level that I have it envisioned. I also am realizing that if I am not willing to take the risk of the cost of doing the artwork then I probably should leave it alone for now! As for the worry about the steel snobbery, (folks who look down on 1080) maybe I need to step up to a better steel. I can still do the finish of the knife to make it look like a proper piece for that time in history.

I do appreciate everyone letting me use you as a sound board on this one!

Knife makers group therapy, who knew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

EDITED:

Collaboration
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Collaboration is working together to achieve a goal!


No one worth their salt ever takes credit for some one else's work.
 
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Sorry for taking so long to reply but when I want to write more than a simple “good work” or “I think it's a good idea” I need to take the time to write it or it comes out like gibberish. Well it still may do but at least I will have tried. ;)

First, the collaboration part I think is seen more as you doing one part and leaving the other completely to another maker. Sounds more like you want to enlist the services of someone to do some embellishment following your design, which is fine but just not seen so much like a collaboration. That being said, what to call the project is not your big concern here.

I did a little inquiring myself, mainly for engraving and I must tell you that it is not cheap, and it shouldn't be of course. It is difficult and very time consuming. I see scrimshaw as the same and maybe carving a little less expensive.

I would first make a rough estimate of how much you would sell the plain knife for. Then get a few quotes for the embellishment part. That will give you an idea of the price you need to sell it for and will make it clear if it is feasible project.

Using myself as an example, the top of my price range would probably be in the 700-800$. Meaning the best knife I could produce (with higher end materials) and have a reasonable chance of selling it. If I add some basic engraving done by a professional, we are talking around 600$ for maybe bolsters and pommel engraving. I then have to ask myself if people will pay 1300-1400$ for the resulting knife. Of course in my case the answer is no. I don't see myself being able to tack on the full costs of outsourced work on my knives for now. In the future maybe but not now.

It will also make it clear that a simple steel like 1080 will also not cut it, pun intended. ;)

I know you asked for input from experienced makers which I am not but maybe this will still help.

Looking forward to seeing more about this project if you decide to go ahead with it.
 
Let me start by saying that I am a fairly new maker, so I don't have any experience selling my own knives. However, I do have alot of real world experience in sales and marketing so I will comment on that part of "the plan".

One thing that does worry me is that is will made from 1080, which will be period correct for this knife.
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Not knowing the details of your build makes it a little hard to answer this part of the question. If it is truly a period piece then those poeple who would be your best potential customers might be turned off if the rest of the build comes out flawless, yet the thing is made out of some "super stainless" that is not period correct. If you are just going for the "wow factor" of the period then it might be a good idea to build with "today's" steel.

In my opinion you need to really decide exactly who your potential customer base is before you make any decisions to proceed with this project, much less what type of steel should be used.

In any event it sounds like this type of a project will expand the boundries of your knife making skills, and that alone might be worth the "investment" in the outside service.

Best of luck with it and of course we'll want to see pictures when you complete it.

Jeff
 
Thanks guys for a few real life reality checks on this one! I have finally put out feelers last night to a very experienced carver that often works in our field. I have talked to them before and this person is down to earth, however their work is off the planet as far as I am concerned! I have seen their work and have no doubt that it is not cheap! As it shouldn't be, their work is lifelike, and that is why I want it done by someone quality!!!!!!! I gave them the concept of what will be entailed in this piece and asked for a very rough estimation that I promised at this time I would not hold them too. You see I have no idea what kind of money they get for their work!


You know I have had these fears since the moment I started working with this idea in my head about the steel and I agree it could go either way. Purist of the time would see it as a sin to use a modern steel, modern steel connoisseurs could see it as totally not there thing, and their be no interest! The piece is not in anyway pre-sold as I have only discussed the full concept with the possible engraver!

One thing about it, if I do this piece and it sells it won't be on my name, nobody knows who I am and I don't have a MS behind my name! However I feel it may have the ability to put my name out there!

So once again while awaiting correspondence from the engraver I am sitting back and re-analyzing the whole thing. This is stressing me at the moment almost as bad as when I opened my own construction company years ago. That turned out OK but the hours were a killer!

Anyway thanks guys this is the kind of feedback I am looking for!
 
When you say purists of the time are you talking about the reenactment community or just collectors interested in the period? Of course I would not offer a high tech stainless but I would play the odds and use a subtle Damascus. Enough to satisfy more demanding collectors and not too much for period purists.
 
Pat, thanks for the comments, in fact they suddenly have me looking at this in slightly different light!

I feel this knife would sell on it's merit. Period collectors will not be interested because it will not be an original, period rein-actors might like the better steel choice but I feel most are not going to be interested due to the cost it would have too sell for. Like all of us they are looking for a good look at the right price.

Thanks for the perspective because I have just decided that if I do this, I will have to go with the (better) steel to ever have a chance to recoup what I have into it! Damascus would kind of split the realm of both worlds.

So I may have to wait a while on this one. I have not done anything in Damascus before and therefore I need some experience along those lines!

Thanks for letting me use everyone as a sounding board on this proposed project!
 
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