"Super" Commander

Mr. Davis!

Thanks for your kind answer, never went in that direction on that some flex is good to absorb impact/vibration.

Very good thinking and comparision to the Glocks, i would never argue that Glocks aren't trustworth, they are definitly one of my favorite guns, and also the handgun i've used the most :)

This was very interesting, i'll curl up and think about this for a while... :)

Mr. Rearic, thanks for you input, i think we have the same idea/opinion here, again, i'll have to think about Mr. Davis info here though.
 
I believe that is a flawed analogy. The Glock's polymer was specifically incorporated because they knew that using such a material in a handgun, there would be stress points where there would have to be a degree of flexion or the weapon would fail. Basically due to cracks.

Now, in the Glock we have a need for a degree of flexion in the frame to prevent catastrophic failure.

In a knife, I believe the liner controversy in this instance is suitable.

In the GRIP, which is what we are really talking about, well, would you feel comfortable to begin shaving off polymer from the front and back integral [polymer] "straps" [front strap/back strap area] of a Glock? This would make the area of GRIP demonstrably weaker.

And if you did, because the Polymer used in the Glock will not take a set but would probably flex back, but bent Titanium once compressed beyond a certain point and depending on the area gripped and the back spacer of the knife can take a set...

Do you see what I am talking about? It is not so much about brute strength I am talking about, but a compromise in strength in the actual area where you are going to grip the knife.

Let's put it to bed. For some reason, the 1998 Commander will never be a reality again. If we must have a liner this thin, especially on a wider body knife, instead of G10 scales, make them out of aluminum.

The finest Benchmade liner lock I ever handled was a Knife of The Month "Special" from BM that was an AFCK that had Aluminum scales on it. Solid as rock and completely changed the feel and made it feel rock solid.
 
I think the liner thickness issue goes beyond handle flex and a firmer(?) purchase. Since one of the liners is "the lock," I would think that a thicker liner will result in more material contacting the blade--a larger and stronger lock.

Nonetheless, I don't know about others but I can feel the difference of an additional layer of tape under a golf club, tennis racket, or baseball grip. A difference of 0.012" per liner would need to be doubled (once for each liner) to 0.024" to gauge the effect on grip size. I like the thick grip of my Specwar and wish the grip of my '99 (late) Commander had the same heft. Please reconsider the use of the 0.062" liners.
 
how about sticking a second stopin between the first one and the backspacer for added support, hehehe.
 
As some of you already know, I've re-thought this issue, and as is sometimes the case when we speak from habit, rather than thoughtfulness we are forced to eat a little crow.

When you read my previous posts in this thread, consider them "yesterday's news."

I was wrong, I was wrong, I was wrong.
I say it three times because I don't say that very often.

That's all I have to say about the matter for the moment, but rest assured there's more to come.
 
here's my input:

When I frist heard of the Super, I jumped to pre-order from TAD. My great hope was to was to get a '98 like construction in a ESM-1 size. I assumed the prime intent for such a knife was to fill the customer demand for '98 style construction in a slightly larger body. For me, paying a little extra for such a knife would be O.K..

Since that's not the case, my hopes are dashed. My interest in the Super is waning.

-Seth
 
I preordered a OD hard chrome model and if it feels in anyway flimsy it will go back for one of Jeff Hall's folders.

Frank Q.
 
Just to add some fact to this excellent debate, .062 titanium is $11.24 more per square foot than .050 titanium. The raw prices - $46.96 vs $58.20 per sq.ft. - are considerably different; the increased cost on a percentage basis is 24%.

However! In the context of a $220 or $300+ knife, the additional expense is negligible. Clearly, it doesn't add much to the cost of the knife on an individual basis. (By the way, the difference in cost for 3/16" G-10 vs 1/4" is $8 per sq. ft., so its not an economically sound basis for thinner handles either.)

In simple terms, if it takes a square foot of each to make a Commander, the thicker materials are $20 per knife more. The savings for thinner materials are an excellent addition to the bottom line, to be sure, but not significant on a per unit basis in real terms given the margins these knives yield.

So, the debate should continue on the merits of the design, and not be framed in economics.
 
My formal education is in Finance, so I am something of a numbers guy. Not a good one, but I picture a lot through numbers.

In this case, going from .050 to .062 is a little more than a full 20% increase in thickness. Imagine being 20% fatter, or richer, or taller, you see? While the raw numbers do not seem to be too different, they really are.

I don't want to reignite what Ken already withdrew as a statement, just wanted to hopefully introduce a different way to look at things.

At any rate, I will have to wait to see what the prodo pieces go for. It breaks my heart, but I cannot justify the cost of this pre-prodo piece. I would rather spend it on one of the '98 Commanders EKI is offering now or put it towards a custom.
 
jbravo & Scott:

The very subject was brought up in chat. Thanks for the input. Having heard the argument, I can see how the thinner liners impact the bottom line. But I for one would pay the overage for a heftier knife!
 
With proper cutting, you should get twelve liners (six knives) out of one 12" by 12" piece with minimal waste.

With a 20 percent increase in material to be cut, figure a 20 percent increase in tool wear and cutting time, and there is the difference in cost between .050 and .062 liners.

The added material costs (given the above figures are correct) is $3.33 per knife. The added cost in tool wear and cutting time could be fairly significant.
 
Just was looking at my 2000 Commander and the 2001 P-SARK. I noticed that the SARK has a longer spacer giving the spine a more stabalized 'feel' . Could this possibly be a a remedy to the flex/weakness problem?

If you were to lenghthen the spacer on the Super Commander similar to Ross'- Andrew Gleason Custom, surely this would be an improvement without dramatically increasing price.

Personally I would prefer bigger everything, but just a thought...
 
A longer spacer would definitely firm up the whole knife, but I'm not about to suggest it as I suspect it would drive up the cost even more than thicker liners would.

In a perfect world however, where cost is not a factor, I'd say extend the spacer to about 1/2 and inch from the stop pin, secure it with an additional three screws, and your suddenly the proud owner of a SERIOUSLY solid knife.

(My edge-amicated guesstimate is that doing this would drive up the cost by 50 bucks or more.)

Add in thicker liners and you've got a monster on your hands.
:D
 
Originally posted by Seth Thomas
here's my input:

When I frist heard of the Super, I jumped to pre-order from TAD. My great hope was to was to get a '98 like construction in a ESM-1 size. I assumed the prime intent for such a knife was to fill the customer demand for '98 style construction in a slightly larger body. For me, paying a little extra for such a knife would be O.K..

Since that's not the case, my hopes are dashed. My interest in the Super is waning.

-Seth
Click to expand...

I felt the same way when the news came.

I´m going to wait until Friday next week. If nothing is heard about thicker liners or an improvment in design I will cancel my order and buy a custom from some other maker. Maybe a production folder like Sebenza could be interesting.

/Colinz :(
 
Originally posted by jbravo
So, the debate should continue on the merits of the design, and not be framed in economics. [/B]
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree. I would buy your arguement for handmade custom pieces but we are talking economies of scale, ie; a production line facility. It is critical that the material is always available to keep your production line going. As I understand it, the main reason the liner thickness went from .062 to .050 was that the .062 was not only more expensive but the .062 stock was not reliably available. If you can't count on your raw materials to be reliable it doesn't matter how much fancy equipment you have, you are dead in the water.

I was hoping that EKI would offer the thicker liner material as an OPTION in their custom/production shop. I can see where that would be feasible (from where I sit anyway).
 
I bought some of the thicker titanium sheets myself today (wanta guess what I'm going to customize for myself?), and the supplier did not indicate there is difficulty in getting it. I don't know its availability in large quanties, but I think most businesses faced with a customer who wants to buy a more costly product in bulk tend to accomodate that customer. Still, I think the idea that .062 liners would somehow double the price of a knife has effectively been dismissed from this discussion.
 
I own an original ESM-1 and was elated to learn that there was a chance to order a new version that I could really carry! So elated, in fact, that I reserved both varieties! Well, after learning that the new "Super Commander" may not be quite as super as I first thought I have cancelled my order (this is sincerely disheartening).

If you have ever held the original you will understand why they were designed for the military...very rugged, very strong, just a tough knife! For me liner thickness means a lot.
 
jbravo,

...I think the idea that .062 liners would somehow double the price of a knife has effectively been dismissed from this discussion.....
Click to expand...

Put yer reading glasses on buddy ;),

Patrick's original note:

...doubled the cost for that element....
Click to expand...

I think he was passing along info he had heard about the production cost of just that one part. NOT the whole knife itself.

Hey gang, please don't kill the messengers;), we are passing along info as we learn about it ourselves. Thanks.

-Josh
 
Would it be possible for you guys at Triple Aught to relay the message to EKI that we want the thicker handles and liners. Even if it is going to be more expensive for the materials, I am sure that they can purchase enough to make 150 knives with.

This could be a significant difference between these pre-production models and the full-scale production models. If you need any proof that Suspects (and others) will pay a premium for these differences, look at what EKI is selling the old '98 Commanders for.

I would definitely be willing to pay the extra $$. In fact, if the specs remain as they are, I am considering cancelling my order as some have mentioned above.
 
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