"Super steels" vs standard. Not THAT impressed.

Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
465
Admittedly, I've only used S30V, but I figured it'd be quite an improvement from aus 8 and alphabet soup steel, but its not all that better. The only real difference is that it doesn't seem to dull in a linear fashion like standard steels, ie instead of going from razor sharp to fully dull with each cut, once it reaches a certain level of dullness it seems to dull less fast from that point on. However, I'd hardly call that level a "utility edge". It gets caught and doesn't cut very cleanly. The other downside is that it does take significantly longer to resharpen, and if I don't finish the edge by stropping with diamond, it never gets really that sharp. Anything other than diamond leaves an incomplete edge. Perhaps other super steel grades are better?
 
Honestly you will see some varying results depending on how you sharpen "super" steels. S30V is one I don't like as much anymore. A little too chippy, and not worth the effort you have to spend on it to get it entirely sharp for the edge retention you get out of it in my opinion either. Honestly, there are better steels out there than S30V that are not any more costly.
S35VN is much easier to sharpen, and really seems to have better performance in my experience as well.

I will say that when you go higher than the S30V and S35VN series of steels, you will see much higher performance. M390 has very good edge retention, and S90V has even better if you like a toothier edge that will still cut insanely well. You do have to get familiar with a strop much more than you do with stones honestly though. Maintaining super steels is very easy with a good strop, but not as much with stones, not to mention you often won't get as good of an edge off of stones alone without going to very fine compounds.
 
Yeah I've seen that. The weird thing is for some reason steels get placed in more then one category. In my opinion it just doesn't seem to justify more expensive knives if a steel can't outperform initial edge holding by 2x or higher. I did also notice like you said stropping frequently does more good for the edge then waiting and sharpening it but that kinda defeats the purpose of longer edge life. Plus, the non super steels seem to be able to reach much greater levels of sharpness no matter how fine I go down (I've gone as low as .1 micron)
 
In my opinion it just doesn't seem to justify more expensive knives if a steel can't outperform initial edge holding by 2x or higher.

You say your only experience is with AUS8 and S30V? M390 will more than double the performance of S30V.

On the one hand, you have jumped to a conclusion based on little experience.

On the other hand, unless you have a cutting job which calls for the extra performance, you not only don't need super steel, you likely wouldn't notice the difference even if you did have a super steel. (In other words, if all you do with a knife is open a few envelopes, you'll do fine with 420J.)

And on the third hand, generations of hunters and users have managed to get by just fine with very basic steel, no matter what they were cutting. (It's a little known fact that moderators have three hands. It's in the job description under "requirements".)
 
I think you have a similar understanding of s30v as me. I particularly think it is annoyed ng to get to a nice razors edge, and.loses that but then holds for a LONG time. Thus, I don't take it down to as fine a grit. I like the edge I can put on 14cr28mov better as it gets a razor edge easily and holds it well considering that ease, but won't hold a.working edge as long. Thus, I'd use s30v for heavier use and sandvik for more delicate, precise cutting.

So far d2 is my favorite all around steel, and s110v or zdp for hard steels. I like sandvik the most for the money.
 
You say your only experience is with AUS8 and S30V? M390 will more than double the performance of S30V.

On the one hand, you have jumped to a conclusion based on little experience.

On the other hand, unless you have a cutting job which calls for the extra performance, you not only don't need super steel, you likely wouldn't notice the difference even if you did have a super steel. (In other words, if all you do with a knife is open a few envelopes, you'll do fine with 420J.)

And on the third hand, generations of hunters and users have managed to get by just fine with very basic steel, no matter what they were cutting. (It's a little known fact that moderators have three hands. It's in the job description under "requirements".)

Dead on! Thanks for the wise words, and the new fact about mods. That does explain why you guys tend to have so many knives. You've got to have more so you can flip with both of your spare hands at all times ;) :D

I think you have a similar understanding of s30v as me. I particularly think it is annoyed ng to get to a nice razors edge, and.loses that but then holds for a LONG time. Thus, I don't take it down to as fine a grit. I like the edge I can put on 14cr28mov better as it gets a razor edge easily and holds it well considering that ease, but won't hold a.working edge as long. Thus, I'd use s30v for heavier use and sandvik for more delicate, precise cutting.

So far d2 is my favorite all around steel, and s110v or zdp for hard steels. I like sandvik the most for the money.

I have seen this a lot honestly. As much as I love shiny polished edges, I have had to come to the realization as I work more and more with high-carbide steels that they are not the way to go if you are trying to get the most out of your steel in terms of edge retention.
The toothy edges that can be put on higher-carbide steels will hold for a very long time, but you will be rather unhappy if you want to have a shiny, polished, and perfectly smooth edge bevel. There are some steels that can handle it better than others, like S110V, M390, and ZDP-189, but that also depends more on the hardness that you take them to as well.

ZDP-189 taken to extreme levels of hardness (like Rockstead knives) will hold an edge better with a perfectly polished edge than anything else, but that is also mostly because the edge itself will start to form micro-chips at that hardness with a toothy edge, and the polished bevel prevents that when done well.
High-carbide steels at lower overall hardness, like S90V, will hold an edge with a fine toothy edge forever, but S30V is definitely not in the same league as those steels, and never really will be.
Other high-carbide steels aren't only made for edge retention either, and that is something to keep in mind honestly. Elmax, for example, is an insanely tough stainless steel, and CPM-3V is pretty much as tough as you can get in any steel, though it is a tool steel by definition. You have to take into consideration the other atributes of steel besides just the edge retention, especially when considering "super steels".

S30V does not take an edge all that easily, and does not like to finished to a finer grit, so if you do want to use it, I would definitely recommend going to a fine, but still toothy, edge, and like you said, just use it for rougher tasks. Just be careful to take care of it, because I have seen some chipping in S30V as well.

If you want something that borders the "perfect steel" then look into Vanax 35. It is much easier to sharpen than most any steel that compares to it in terms of edge retention, has insanely high corrosion resistance by virtue of being a nitrogen steel, and will hold an edge for a period of time comparable to M390, while being able to take a finer edge and function better on it than most other "super steels". Good luck finding someone who makes knives in it besides Shirogrov though. The steel is very expensive to buy in stock, and is extremely difficult and time-consuming to treat, so that costs associated with produciton on it are rather high.
 
Last edited:
Yeah I've seen that. The weird thing is for some reason steels get placed in more then one category.
There's a reason why a steel will be in more than one category. Each manufacturer will have a different heat treat which will make the steel perform slightly differently between brands. Another reason for the difference in that testing, IMO, is you're also seeing the performance difference in blade shapes.

I use my supersteels the same as common steels. When it loses it's bite I give it a strop. I never carry the knife all the way to dull. But, I know that if I have a day or a task that requires a lot of cutting, I can do the job all the way through without having to stop and sharpen in the middle of the job. I personally haven't had any problems with S30V and really like the steel. And compared to my SAK, I would say the edge lasts at least twice as long.
 
S30V does not take an edge all that easily, and does not like to finished to a finer grit, so if you do want to use it, I would definitely recommend going to a fine, but still toothy, edge, and like you said, just use it for rougher tasks. Just be careful to take care of it, because I have seen some chipping in S30V as well.

I have a mirror polish on my Military. Cuts like the dickens. It takes that edge with a simple strop in about 2 minutes. Assuming I didn't let it get too dull. Maybe it's the sharpening equipment you guys are using? I use a simple strop with green bark river compound. And that's all I've used on it for the past year or so.
 
I have a mirror polish on my Military. Cuts like the dickens. It takes that edge with a simple strop in about 2 minutes. Assuming I didn't let it get too dull. Maybe it's the sharpening equipment you guys are using? I use a simple strop with green bark river compound. And that's all I've used on it for the past year or so.

I'm not saying it's insanely hard to get a polished edge on S30V, but rather the effort is somewhat wasted when compared to the same edge geometry with a slightly toothy edge, say something finished at 1000 grit instead of fully polish (it would still look very good though at that finish).
You can get good performance out of a polished edge in S30V, but you will get better performance out of it with a little bit of tooth to it, and I don't think that I like the effort required in some cases to get that polish for the trade in performance. The edge bevel angle is also very crucial though, and honestly now that you have mentioned sharpening eqipment and Spyderco, I must say that the OP's issues all sound like a bevel that is too wide, or has not been properly maintained, and not a fault of the steel itself.

I would be rather interested to know what the OP uses to sharpen, and what angle the egde on the knife has been set to. the knife in question would help out a lot too. Some manufacturers do a better job on heat treat than others for sure.

Btw, I use the same strop, and use Bark River's green compound as well as a variety of their CBN compounds. They work very nicely, and are my favorite strops I have used so far, though they definitely tend to made your edge form a convex bevel over time because of how the leather is held in the wood (not super flat). Can't complain when they take care of all of my knives though can I? ;)
 
grind-ability is definitely a great point the op makes... would you rather have one that holds a working edge for a good while or one that doesn't quite as long but you can touch up on stones very easily? I prefer the latter... of course I use diamond stones so neither is particular an issue on my personal knives, but I still think it's a great point!
 
grind-ability is definitely a great point the op makes... would you rather have one that holds a working edge for a good while or one that doesn't quite as long but you can touch up on stones very easily? I prefer the latter... of course I use diamond stones so neither is particular an issue on my personal knives, but I still think it's a great point!

You know what my opinion on that one is my friend ;)
My 95T is still holding up that mirrored edge really well btw. Only lightly stropped it once or twice so far :D
 
You say your only experience is with AUS8 and S30V? M390 will more than double the performance of S30V.

On the one hand, you have jumped to a conclusion based on little experience.

On the other hand, unless you have a cutting job which calls for the extra performance, you not only don't need super steel, you likely wouldn't notice the difference even if you did have a super steel. (In other words, if all you do with a knife is open a few envelopes, you'll do fine with 420J.)

And on the third hand, generations of hunters and users have managed to get by just fine with very basic steel, no matter what they were cutting. (It's a little known fact that moderators have three hands. It's in the job description under "requirements".)

Would you care to explain how M390 will more double the performance of S30V?

I had have Spyderco's Para2 in S30V, the blue one in M390, the orange XHP and the green one in 204P.

I used them almost everyday for over 2 years and I can't notice that much different between them.

I had done the cardboard cut test between them and the result are too close to say which steel performed better than others....

Now I sold all of them safe the green one because I like the color.
 
Fow what its worth, I tested some of Benchmade's S30V against Byrd's 8Cr13MoV a couple of years ago. After cutting abou 100 ft. of cardboard, and taking careful sharpness measurements, I couldn't tell a difference between them.
 
I have a mirror polish on my Military. Cuts like the dickens. It takes that edge with a simple strop in about 2 minutes. Assuming I didn't let it get too dull. Maybe it's the sharpening equipment you guys are using? I use a simple strop with green bark river compound. And that's all I've used on it for the past year or so.

I've tried using regular green and white compounds and every time it fails to even touch the edge. Perhaps bark river is harder?
 
Would suggest you use the "Sharpie" trick to see what angle is necessary to strop the bevel. Also, as was said earlier by Charr in post 10 is relevant. To avoid convexing the edge, do not use much downward force on the blade, especially if the leather is thicker and pliable. You would do well with a harder, thinner leather which is very flat on the support-board. IMO.
Shotgun, above, was right on target in explaining why you might see the same steel is several different categories. Usually, the hardness is also noted. Harder steels will keep their edge longer, but may be more prone to chipping.
 
S30V is an excellent knife steel, but it's fussier about its heat treat than other steels. I have had chippy S30V blades that I hated, but when heat treated well, S30V is a great steel, easily superior to AUS-8 for most EDC purposes.

Ankerson's thread shows how much better high-performance steels are for wear resistance, but his tests also show that blade geometry has a large effect, too. The high-performance steels allow us to use a more aggressive blade and edge geometry that amplifies the steel's ability to retain a sharp working edge for much, much longer than more simple steels.

My sense is that people who complain about the lack of performance in their high-performance steels are not taking advantage of the acute geometry that these steels can achieve -- no are they using the proper sharpening techniques and equipment that makes keeping super steels sharp relatively easy.
 
s30v is a good steel not a great steel. My S30v knife takes a very sharp edge and holds it pretty well. Better than the cheap knives I have to resharpen for my friends even though I sharpen my own knives to more acute angles.

S110V/M390 takes a very sharp edge and holds it very well. Cardboard, fish, zip ties, and whatever else i find to cut up doesn't seem to bother it.


I value edge holding over ease of sharpening as it doesnt make sense to me that you would give up the functionality of a knife so you can stick with inferior sharpening tools
 
I prefer ease of sharpening over edge retention within the context of cutlery-grade steels of good heat treatment but it has nothing to do with a desire to use inferior sharpening tools...Most cutting tasks are relatively low-wear, and the majority of edge-damaging accidents with a knife (like cutting into a heavy steel box staple or hitting a rock) will dull any knife. It only takes me seconds to maintain an edge that has dulled through use, but repairing a damaged edge is where the greater challenge becomes apparent with very wear-resistant steels. Steels with high wear resistance make good sense within certain contexts, but to notice a significant difference in performance, the volume of high-wear cutting tasks would have to be very high. High edge stability, on the other hand, I place a very high emphasis on.

A big problem I see in the knife and tool industry is the tendency to design a blade without optimizing it for the given steel and intended range of function, and so many blades are left much thicker in their overall geometry than they reasonably could be, often largely for cosmetic reasons or because it costs less to grind it that way.
 
"Super steels" vs standard. Not THAT impressed

Admittedly, I've only used S30V, but I figured it'd be quite an improvement from aus 8 and alphabet soup steel, but its not all that better. The only real difference is that it doesn't seem to dull in a linear fashion like standard steels, ie instead of going from razor sharp to fully dull with each cut, once it reaches a certain level of dullness it seems to dull less fast from that point on. However, I'd hardly call that level a "utility edge". It gets caught and doesn't cut very cleanly. The other downside is that it does take significantly longer to resharpen, and if I don't finish the edge by stropping with diamond, it never gets really that sharp. Anything other than diamond leaves an incomplete edge. Perhaps other super steel grades are better?

Seems like you miss titled the thread. Should be: "S30V, the only 'super-steel' I've tried, isn't that much better than AUS8".
 
Back
Top