I believe you-and to a greater degree than the steel I pictured. But, the steel fits on my key chain
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"Super steels" vs standard. Not THAT impressed.
- Thread starter yepimonfire
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I believe you-and to a greater degree than the steel I pictured. But, the steel fits on my key chain
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Yup I sure did. Sorry. :foot:
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It takes more than random use to reach a conclusion. And cardboard is a very variable medium. Here is a report I did on running side-by-side comparisons cutting manila rope. If you run a search of the testing forum for threads I started, you will find that I did a lot of testing before reaching conclusions.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/792540-Comparison-of-CPM-M4-HC-ZDP-189-M390-and-S30V-edge-retention
I respect you for your time doing the test.
But is it really fair to do steel comparison test with various of knives that have different handle, blade construction, blade geometry, sweet spot, weight, and ergonomic...
Even thought you sharpen all of them to the same degree edge angle. But all of the factor mentioned can have big effect on the result.
I do agreed with you that geometry play much bigger role when it come to edge holding, the same logic also applied to overall design of the knife thought.
Frank,
FYI and offered only to illuminate the issue...
We see similar disconnects in bike design. Frame stiffness is one of the most commonly studied aspects of frame design, on the casual assumption that stiffer bikes are faster. Similarly, bike tire roll down tests in which bike tires are spun against metal drums are often used to determine rolling resistance, on the assumption that lower rolling resistance as measured in this way leads to faster times.
For bike frames, it turns out a bike rider can typically sustain more power output over a longer time if the bike has just the right amount of "give". This is similar to why wood floor are easier on basketball players than concrete floors are. Drugs aside, the bike Lance Armstrong rode to victory was fast because it was less stiff than many others.
For bike tires, roll down test are won by thinner and harder tires. The ultimate non-sensical winner is a steel wheel. Things are different on rougher roads due to hysterical vibration energy loss. The rougher the road, the wider and softer tire you want. This can be seen on TV currently with the Paris-Roubaix race which covers cobble stones and favors wider softer tires. Later this summer, when they run the Tour de France, most of the roads will be freshly resurfaced for the race and will be very smooth and the racers will choose skinnier and harder tires.
These are analogs to the discussion of edge retention. Edge wear from abrasion is only one form of failure and rope cutting (like steel drum tests) will only create certain forms of stress on the blade but not others.
This doesn't devalue the isolated and controlled testing that eliminates variables. Just a reminder that it's only one factor in a more complex system that involves human knife users, a variety of materials and a variety of cutting methods, which is say that overall performance is bigger than just edge retention, just as frame performance is bigger than just stiffness and tire performance is bigger than rolling resistance.
I know you know this, but this thread came to mind as I flipped by the P-R the other night.
FYI and offered only to illuminate the issue...
We see similar disconnects in bike design. Frame stiffness is one of the most commonly studied aspects of frame design, on the casual assumption that stiffer bikes are faster. Similarly, bike tire roll down tests in which bike tires are spun against metal drums are often used to determine rolling resistance, on the assumption that lower rolling resistance as measured in this way leads to faster times.
For bike frames, it turns out a bike rider can typically sustain more power output over a longer time if the bike has just the right amount of "give". This is similar to why wood floor are easier on basketball players than concrete floors are. Drugs aside, the bike Lance Armstrong rode to victory was fast because it was less stiff than many others.
For bike tires, roll down test are won by thinner and harder tires. The ultimate non-sensical winner is a steel wheel. Things are different on rougher roads due to hysterical vibration energy loss. The rougher the road, the wider and softer tire you want. This can be seen on TV currently with the Paris-Roubaix race which covers cobble stones and favors wider softer tires. Later this summer, when they run the Tour de France, most of the roads will be freshly resurfaced for the race and will be very smooth and the racers will choose skinnier and harder tires.
These are analogs to the discussion of edge retention. Edge wear from abrasion is only one form of failure and rope cutting (like steel drum tests) will only create certain forms of stress on the blade but not others.
This doesn't devalue the isolated and controlled testing that eliminates variables. Just a reminder that it's only one factor in a more complex system that involves human knife users, a variety of materials and a variety of cutting methods, which is say that overall performance is bigger than just edge retention, just as frame performance is bigger than just stiffness and tire performance is bigger than rolling resistance.
I know you know this, but this thread came to mind as I flipped by the P-R the other night.
I used to go to 1 micron when stropping knives, but I now stop at 1200 grit silicon carbide valve grinding compound. There is room for quality steel in the kitchen and for utility use. Steels like S35V, VG10 and XHP give much longer service than 1095 or 440C in the kitchen before they need to be sharpened. Frankly, I find it hard to tell S35V from VG10 or XHP in edge retention in the kitchen, but there are cases where super steels come in handy.
When I moved two years ago, I wound up using knives in 154CM, M4 and ZDP189. A single day of cutting cord and opening boxes was enough to dull the 154CM, but ZDP kept a sharp edge. I had to pack my stones and sharpening gear for the move, and the blade in M4 carried me through 3 or 4 weeks before it needed to be touched up.
My kitchen knives get more use than my pocket knives, and it is there that I like steels like VG10, XHP and S35V.
When I moved two years ago, I wound up using knives in 154CM, M4 and ZDP189. A single day of cutting cord and opening boxes was enough to dull the 154CM, but ZDP kept a sharp edge. I had to pack my stones and sharpening gear for the move, and the blade in M4 carried me through 3 or 4 weeks before it needed to be touched up.
My kitchen knives get more use than my pocket knives, and it is there that I like steels like VG10, XHP and S35V.
I think the issue is probably your technique and/or whatever equipment you're using. I've gotten S30V ridiculously sharp finishing the edge with diamonds, with aluminum oxide stones, with ceramics, stropping with leather, and stropping with nano-cloth. My personal preference now is somewhere between a 600-1000 grit edge with only a couple light passes on the strops as I could care less now about aesthetics and prefer the toothier edge for performance. Strops or a couple light passes on the 1k grit stones are all that's needed for a quick touch-up.
Most of the complaints around here about how difficult S30V is to sharpen are mostly from the guys standing over a Sharpmaker for 3 days trying to reprofile their knife with less than ideal equipment for the job. Yes, I've tried it once.
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I dunno about rope but IME blade shape makes a huge difference. A curved blade will deliver more PSI on the cut because the contact is focused across a smaller portion of the blade compared to a straight blade. This is why IMO spydercos rank so high on these tests. How the blade presents itself(handle to blade orientation) also makes a difference. I'm moving further away from knives with a flat portion to ones that have gradual curves throughout. YMMV
Charr
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Very true, and a matter of opinion in many cases that is perfectly fine. Most of the higher-carbide steels I use are that way as well, though they are not very likely to roll with regular use either, so I usually don't have to worry about edge repair that much. They usually do require a strop instead of a steel though because of the wear resistance like I said, and you do want to maintain the edge fairly regularly with the strop (for me about once a week or so with constant use) so that you don't have to fully resharpen the blade, as that is a little more labor-intensive.
It's all really a matter of preference when it comes to stuff like upkeep, as well as how much you are willing to spend on the knife and the materials needed to maintain it.
That's a really cool little keychain hone as well. Is it steel, ceramic, or diamond?
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Knives are a funny thing.... the super steels draw my attention consistently. But, I tend to use my regular SAK a whole lot more than any other knife and yeah, I have to sharpen it relatively often which doesn't bother me a bit. I also tend to carry a "better" knife in a so called super steel, but the SAK always seems to win the draw when I reach for a knife to use. So, why fight it?
I am still pretty comfortable with VG-10. But I have higher end steel knives too.
I am still pretty comfortable with VG-10. But I have higher end steel knives too.
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You betcha, Red Ryder.
not2sharp
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I prefer ease of sharpening. When you are using the knife, the edge is going to go fast irrespective of how super your steel is, and not all cutting choirs require the same edge. It is a lot easier to reach for a small sharpening stone, where a few unconscious swipes, gets you to the edge that you want on the knife when you are using it; then to rely on something that may require exotic tools and a lot of effort to re-sharpen.
n2s
Very true. But blade shape is matched to the cutting task, which is the larger issue.
Eliminating variables is illuminating but doesn't lead to easy generalizations. Cutting situations differ and each one is optimized differently.
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I agree. I don't put much stock into the testing that's done because of all the variable left unaccounted for. The only way to know if a steel/knife is going to work for you and what you do is to try it. I think there's still valid reasons to having a basic non-stainless like 1095 and lower end stainless like 12c27 and aus-8. It's all in how you use your knife. Some super steels just aren't appropriate for every task or every person. That's why I like both.
There are a lot of variables, but there are also some simple truths:
1 High-performance steels such as 3V or M390 or K390 or 10V can deliver much more wear resistance and/or toughness than simple steels such as 1095. For example, 3V can be tougher, stronger and more wear resistant than 1095. K390 can leave 1095 in the dust when it comes to wear resistance.
2 High-performance steels can support much more acute edge geometry than simple steels, amplifying the steels wear-resistant advantage over simple steels and giving these edges a big boost in cutting performance.
3 High-performance steels can support a more aggressive edge geometry than simple steels, making them just as easy or easier to keep sharp with diamond stones and strops than a conventional edge in 1095 maintained with traditional sharpening equipment.
Simple steels can make excellent knives, especially when task-optimized with geometry and heat treat. But in most cases, there is going to be a high-performance steel that will easily out perform a simple steel for any given task on any given knife.
1 High-performance steels such as 3V or M390 or K390 or 10V can deliver much more wear resistance and/or toughness than simple steels such as 1095. For example, 3V can be tougher, stronger and more wear resistant than 1095. K390 can leave 1095 in the dust when it comes to wear resistance.
2 High-performance steels can support much more acute edge geometry than simple steels, amplifying the steels wear-resistant advantage over simple steels and giving these edges a big boost in cutting performance.
3 High-performance steels can support a more aggressive edge geometry than simple steels, making them just as easy or easier to keep sharp with diamond stones and strops than a conventional edge in 1095 maintained with traditional sharpening equipment.
Simple steels can make excellent knives, especially when task-optimized with geometry and heat treat. But in most cases, there is going to be a high-performance steel that will easily out perform a simple steel for any given task on any given knife.
not2sharp
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To me the quest for a super steel is driven primarily by the fear and absence of sharpening skills. Make people comfortable in maintaining their tools and the longer-lived edge selling point become largely moot. High performance steels have become the Ginsu knives of our generation, the average guy hears the hype and expects to never have to sharpen the thing.
Remember the Ginsu TV ads?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wzULnlHr8w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUarASqrVnY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pde0aOM-lds
n2s
Remember the Ginsu TV ads?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wzULnlHr8w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUarASqrVnY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pde0aOM-lds
n2s
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Charr
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I think you're partly right, but at the same time, I am more than capable of maintaining my own edges, but if given the option of needing to put in 1/2 as much time or less sharpening and maintaining my blades, I will take it for EDC.
I use my knives every day, and they usually get a good amount of actual cutting time depending on the day, so on a very cheap knife I pretty much have to maintain the edge every night or every other night. On a steel like M390, Elmax, or 3V, I only have to strop the edges lightly once a week or so, and then they are good to go for another round of use. I just find that a more simple and reasonable way for me to maintain my own knives for my personal needs.
Of course, you still make a very valid point, in that those who lack the ability or tools to sharpen are often drawn to knives that claim higher edge retention. I wouldn't say that this is entirely a bad thing though really. Sharpening a blade can be a tough thing to learn for some people, especially when trying to learn it free-handed, so having a steel that they don't need sharpened but maybe once a month and then sending it out for professional sharpenning, or just maintaining it with a strop to make that professional edge last longer, doesn't really seem like a bad thing for those people.
When I first learned how to sharpen my knives, it was on some cheaper knives with steels like 440c, 8cr13mov, Aus8, ect. Once I had some better knives, I leanred the difference between sharpening steels like that and sharpening, say, RWL-34, CPM-154, and S35VN. Now, I know the difference between sharpening all of those steels and sharpening M390, S90V, Elmax, S110V, 3V, 4V, M4, ZDP-189, S125V (just...don't try to sharpen it...just don't...),, Vanax 35, etc. They are all different, and they all took some time to get used to, so I think that some people using the better steels to mitigate their possibly lacking ability in sharpening might be alright, though they should try and get better always.
No doubt there is a lot of misinformation out there, but I think poor sharpening skills is what turns people off to high-performance steels. And remember, you can get much better toughness and strength, with high-performance steels, not just better wear resistance.
With the right geometry, the right skills and the right sharpening equipment, high-performance steels are easy to keep sharp -- you just don't have to sharpen them as often.
I've always found it curious that on a knife-enthusiasts' form, so many people prefer low-performance steels to high-performance steels. It's like people on a NASCAR forum arguing that it would be more fun to watch minivans race.