Super Steels

The most recent breakthru of metalurgy technology, in my mind, has been Powder Steel,
MicroMelt/MicroClean, etc. When you get the forging process down to that kind of
control and exposure to Carbon in such a uniform way, the possibilities become
exponential. Just look at Crucible S**V series. The great thing is, we cutlery types
benefit from metallurgists who are working for NASA, DoD, and the like. Look at titanium
for example.I don't think we can even fathom whats coming... think "Terminator" and
your on the right track. Problem is, half the fun of a blade is sharpening the edge.
If it's so tough we cant sharpen it, no body will probably buy it....except for me !!!
 
Well guys, diamonds are still the hardest thing we know of, and, we know a diamond sharpener makes short work of ALL the steels we use. So, if it isn't harder than the diamonds in our sharpeners, it should be doable.
 
there is actually a diamond knife used in the medical industry. my guess it is for cell tissue cross sectioning.it is stored in special circumstances since to touch it with human hand ruins the knife.
 
Maybe a laminated/composite blade made out of a carbide (tungsten, vanadium) laminated with 420
 
misque said:
Well guys, diamonds are still the hardest thing we know of, and, we know a diamond sharpener makes short work of ALL the steels we use. So, if it isn't harder than the diamonds in our sharpeners, it should be doable.
Click to expand...

there has been 2 man made compounds that have been found that are harder then diamonds. one in it's pure form being around 47% harder.

w-boron nitrate
lonsdaleite
 
Nebulae said:
Did I double post? how does that happen anyway?
i think it is possible to make self sharpening knives. If you coat one side of a blade all the way to the edge with somthing like TiN then the as you cut the steel wears away, but the TiN remains, thus "self sharpening" problem is that these knives never get very sharp to start with, actually pretty dull by our standards
Click to expand...

Good idea, but Buck beat ya to it.
 
I think it's getting a little too easy for some to dismiss a knife just because it's made out of 420 or aus8.
It's still steel, as most non-knife people would put it... lol
 
We're still figuring out what's the best heat treat for medieval era steels like 1080 and WWI era steels like D2. Heat treating makes a bigger impact than steel composition. Currently the latest fad is adding niobium to steels to increase both wear resistance and toughness, but in some applications simple plain carbon steel still outperforms them.

I've used knives that's 400 years old and perform as well as anything today. The ancients focused a lot more on optimal edge geometry with their thin convex edges and used very hard steel to match the blade geometry. They only used as much carbon as was necessary and no more, to order to maintain high toughness relative to blade hardness.

BTW, we have yet to figure out how the ancients used carbon nanotubes to make damascus blades like this:
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsc...hnology_in_an_17th_century_damascus_sword.php
 
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ar0maticdecay said:
there has been 2 man made compounds that have been found that are harder then diamonds. one in it's pure form being around 47% harder.

w-boron nitrate
lonsdaleite
Click to expand...

can you site a source for this info? I had never heard this and thought the hardest substance was diamond. when I look up both of these compounds I can only find sources that say niether is as hard as diamond..(ofcourse lonsdalite could be thought of as diamond because it is also a crystal with a 100% carbon stucture, except it is a hexogonal latice crystal unlike normal diamond) anyways I am really intrigued by this and was wondering if you could direct me to the literature you found (this would be a great bit of trivia):)
 
This is an interesting question...

And I think we will see many of the things mentioned in this thread...

Powder Metallurgy is still getting better, and allowing unheard of amounts of certain elements into our 'steel'. Vanadium, of course is the real leader in this regard, since vanadium carbides are the hardest carbides, and almost all the 'super' steels owe their 'super' to vanadium and powder metallurgy...

I think we will continue to see Nitrogen as an important alloy, it gives both H1 and INFI their oomph... And there is some very interesting geo-political history involved in the development of nitrogen as an alloy.

And speaking of Nitrogen, that reminds me that the processing of the steel, heat treating and otherwise, is another place where we are seeing gains... If I am not mistaken, Nitrogen is often added in, after the steel exists, in a separate process. And now we have 'friction-forging' which is a refinement of welding process, the jury is not out on it yet, but it is promising...

And, at some level, I think that the emphasis on 'super' steels can blind some to all the really great steels that are still out there... Just a couple months gone, Fowler wrote about 5160 and how he uses it, and it's value...

I like knives, so I am interested in it all, I have no dog in the fight, except for the whole industry.

Marion
 
cotdt said:
We're still figuring out what's the best heat treat for medieval era steels like 1080 and WWI era steels like D2. Heat treating makes a bigger impact than steel composition. Currently the latest fad is adding niobium to steels to increase both wear resistance and toughness, but in some applications simple plain carbon steel still outperforms them.

I've used knives that's 400 years old and perform as well as anything today. The ancients focused a lot more on optimal edge geometry with their thin convex edges and used very hard steel to match the blade geometry. They only used as much carbon as was necessary and no more, to order to maintain high toughness relative to blade hardness.

BTW, we have yet to figure out how the ancients used carbon nanotubes to make damascus blades like this:
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsc...hnology_in_an_17th_century_damascus_sword.php
Click to expand...

Not quite.
The process of thermal cycling was re-discovered in the 80's/90's by John Verhoeven and Alfred Pendray.
Russian Bulat is another good example of modern Damascus steel (not pattern welded).
 
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And, at some level, I think that the emphasis on 'super' steels can blind some to all the really great steels that are still out there... Just a couple months gone, Fowler wrote about 5160 and how he uses it, and it's value...
Click to expand...

I just started making knives it the last few months, 5160 is the steel I chose to work with. I love the final product, and it was fairly easy to work with. I did send it out to be professionally HT so that helps a lot.
 
Screw super-steels! They are useless without a "Super-Sharpener". Anything above ZPD-180, 110V or CPM-15V would need a nuclear-powered belt-grinder only to touch up. Who would want to mess with that anyway?

I'd like to see the industry providing a mas produced super-shaperning system to the end-user, that is actually efficient, affordable and easy to use.
 
VTguy said:
can you site a source for this info? I had never heard this and thought the hardest substance was diamond. when I look up both of these compounds I can only find sources that say niether is as hard as diamond..(ofcourse lonsdalite could be thought of as diamond because it is also a crystal with a 100% carbon stucture, except it is a hexogonal latice crystal unlike normal diamond) anyways I am really intrigued by this and was wondering if you could direct me to the literature you found (this would be a great bit of trivia):)
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i've been scientic papers on it b4 but i don't know where to find them at the molment. i can search for them some other time.. this is something quick that i found after a min or 2 of searching.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16610-diamond-no-longer-natures-hardest-material.html
 
ar0maticdecay said:
i've read scientific papers on it b4 but I don't know where to find them at the moment. i can search for them some other time.. this is something quick that i found after a min or 2 of searching.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16610-diamond-no-longer-natures-hardest-material.html
Click to expand...

This is very a very interesting blurb!! I want to make it clear that I was in no way doubting you; in my mind it only makes sence that we would find something harder than diamonds eventually. If you do find those scientific papers post it, PM me or give me an e-mail at mgbushey@uvm.edu Thank you very much for your time. I had only briefly checked wiki which is certianly NOT a reputable source:)
 
Outdoors Fanatic said:
Screw super-steels! They are useless without a "Super-Sharpener". Anything above ZPD-180, 110V or CPM-15V would need a nuclear-powered belt-grinder only to touch up. Who would want to mess with that anyway?

I'd like to see the industry providing a mas produced super-shaperning system to the end-user, that is actually efficient, affordable and easy to use.
Click to expand...

Industrial grade diamonds?

Diamond sharpeners make short work of any steel, I suggest picking some up.
 
VTguy said:
This is very a very interesting blurb!! I want to make it clear that I was in no way doubting you; in my mind it only makes sence that we would find something harder than diamonds eventually. If you do find those scientific papers post it, PM me or give me an e-mail at mgbushey@uvm.edu Thank you very much for your time. I had only briefly checked wiki which is certianly NOT a reputable source:)
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yea wiki u can only take it for what it's worth. those 2 compounds are def harder then a diamond from what i have read. they are looking for a way to make them in a larger scale. will prob be a few years though.

how they use carbon nanotubes in the future will be very interesting also.
 
Joshua J. said:
Industrial grade diamonds?

Diamond sharpeners make short work of any steel, I suggest picking some up.
Click to expand...
Yeah I know that. DMT makes great diamond stones. But I was talking about something more like a fail-proof system, not benchstones, rods, alignment guides or general sharpening material for free-hand sharpening. Every major cutlery manufacturer invests millions in R&D searching for better steels, heat treatment, locks, sheaths, carrying systems and every knife related accessory you can imagine except efficient and "friendly" sharpening systems. Yes, Spyderco's Sharpmaker and its similars are great but is far from a complete do-all system and the Edge Pro is quite cumbersome, difficult to assembly and use, not to mention expensive. What else we have in the market? A bunch of useless gimmicks and junk which ruins your knife instead of actually sharpen it...
 
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