Superiority of Production Folders?

Buzzbait

Buzzbait

Joined
Feb 25, 2001
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After reading Anthony’s now infamous "Crapshoot" thread, I have a question that may be worthy of its own little thread. Are custom folders functionally inferior to the folders of large production companies? I’m not trying to knock the exceptional makers in this industry, but can they really compete with the top production companies in terms of functionality and reliability?

Let’s say that a top production company comes up with a new folder concept. They work over the initial design, and then perhaps have an engineer looks things over. The engineer points out possible design flaws and makes recommendations. Changes are made. Then they make a prototype to get a working model. If all looks well, a “smart guy” suggests the proper materials and heat treatments, and further prototypes are made. These prototypes are testing to destruction, and further refinements are made. When all of the initial work is finished, which could involve a whole series of prototypes, the company develops production procedures around tolerances that must be held for each part. A first manufacturing run is done, and the knife goes to market. Customer feedback is collected from the first run and changes are made to further refine the design. Each run becomes more reliable and consistent. To top it off, the most successful elements of the design and manufacturing process are used on the next new model folder. This leads to a whole line of beautifully functional folders.

Do the custom makers have the proper engineering degrees to design and execute a strong and safe lock? Does the maker’s quality control process properly guarantee a low rate of part failures? Is the blade of a custom knife properly tested for cutting ability without the expensive machine to test it?

You obviously don’t get exactly what you want with a production knife. The blade shape or grind may not exactly be what you want. The handle material may not be exotic or beautiful. Forget file work under most circumstances. Fit and finish may not be your bag of tea on a production folder. But in sheer terms of functionality and reliability, can a custom maker even compete with a knowledge and collective experience of a large production company?

To tell you the truth, I don’t know the answer. I’m not a custom maker, and I don’t even own a custom folder. I’d like to get a good custom folder, but I’m very hesitant in finding out the hard way.
 
Buz you are missing the most inportant factore of a factory production made knife. Can we make alot of them cheap enough to make a profit?
 
I think a lot of it would depend on the maker's knife using background. If he/she has used a knife for many and varied tasks then I think he/she would be more likely to produce a good, functional design. I only own one "custom" folder, an aluminum handled liner lock with a 440V blade and file work. The design is outstanding. It feels like it belongs in my hand. The maker's knife using background as a hunter/trapper/fisherman shines through in this knife. I also have two fixed blades by the same maker that work just as well.
No, it is not as perfect as a Sebenza. It is close in design, but falls short in the lock department as well as fit and finish. If you are looking to buy a "custom", especially a folder, do your homework. The best workmanship means nothing if the design falls short. The best design means nothing if it isn't properly executed.

Paul
 
I think that Buzzbait brings up some good questions. Obviously a factory will have superior resources that should allow it to produce a consistently excellent knife. The process Buzzbait describes is surely how Spyderco has produced so many good knives, however, it should be noted that even good factory systems can fall short of the mark. Just look at the problems that Spyderco has had with their Vesuvius compression lock model.

BTW, Buzzbait, I thought you owned a Dozier fixed blade? That's a custom,isn't it?
 
Custom fixed blades don't worry me much, and I have a few of them. A fixed blade, in my totally useless opinion, must be easier to successfully make than a folder. There are no moving parts. Heck, a fixed blade can have a grand total of one actual part. An integral one-piece knife takes a fair amount of planning and grinding, but the chance of failure seems minimal. Once you start talking locks, pivots, stress relieving, etc, I get a little scared.
 
What worries me is the unseen aspect of knives: heat treat. Custom makers who outsource their HT to guys like Paul Bos have a good guarantee of quality and consistency. Large production companies also usually have their HT down, and if a few bad ones make it out then replacing the blade is an easy job if the knife is sent back.

The custom makers who do their own HT may not have the quality equipment that the large HT operations use (ovens, cryo, automation, etc.). The skill of the individual maker at HT is really put to the test, especially his ability to consistently achieve good results.
 
One way to answer this question is ........
The more you produce of an item the more
opportunity for a "mistake" getting to the customer
i.e. the reason for warranty.

Because productions knives are tallied in the
hundreds or thousands manufactures have to go to
extremes to avoid as many product mistakes as
possible. Custom makers , on the other hand, can
"fuss" over a knife for much much longer to get
the quality and reliablity to stay in business.
That time spent by the custom maker is one reason
that his prices have to be so high......along with
his quality.

Would I like to have a custom made folder....sure.
However, since I don't "need" one I'll have to
satisfied with hi end production knives. :D
 
i look at custom knives more along the lines of artwork or my specific needs if a production knife doesnt fit the bill
 
Pick your favorite design and compare the custom version with the production version. The reason that knife companies collaborate with makers is because the design is sound and demand is high.

If you pick up a knife, custom, production, semi-custom, mid tech,you can tell immediately about the ergonomics fit and finish. Heat treat and materials used sometimes are not as easy.

This is where reputation comes in and it's the same for all the above listed, I might not know anything about a knife company or maker or partnership.

Consumers need to inform themselves. Read the available print and electronic media, ask knife people.

If it doesn't matter to the consumer it is a moot point. If there is no percievable difference between a custom knife and a production knife then there isn't. Whether or not I see or feel a difference is inconsequential, if you don't see a difference.

Something that always suprises me in the U.S is our distrust of craftmanship. Somehow we became convinced that a machine\factory can make something better than a person.

There are always levels of quality, some makers are better than others whether the maker is a factory or a shop or something in between we are better consumers if we can tell the difference.

My comments are not aimed at anyone in particular, I'm speaking in the general sense when I say I or you.

As I read the beginnings of the thread several names came to mind, many of them have factory collaborations, I think all of the makers I can think of make a better knife than the factory they collaborate with.
 
Consider Sebenza and Al Mar Sere 2000.... quality, consistency, reliability, durability, warranty...it seems to me they're as good as it gets I honestly don't know what more you can get in a custom, maybe some exotic materials,,,some hand finishing...but probably not increased function.
 
I personally have both customs and production. I will take the high end production in a heartbeat. The fit, finish, etc. are generally quite good. I can use the crap out of it and don't need to feel back about the dings, scratches, etc. If one gets lost, oh well, I can replace it.

I will stick with:

Sebenza
SERE 2000
940 Ti S30V
AFCK - M2
Spyderco Endura VG-10
Buck/Mayo

They get carried, used, and appreciated.
 
To echo some posts of Keith Montgomery, the best customs tend to be the ones that the owner specifically has made for him. MY three most favorite customs are two Mini Model 2s by Mike Obenauf and 2 15/16" Wharncliffe by A.T. Barr. The fact that these knives have the handle material, blade steel, blade length that I ordered means that they really fit my vision of what a folder should be. I have other knives that I think may be slightly better finished like my Andre DeVilliers Exectac Spearpoint, but the fact that my special orders have certain features I really like such as no bolsters and abrasion resistant scale materials like carbon fiber and G-10 takes them over the top in terms of EDC use.
 
Have to agree with Voodoo that a custom, folder or fixed, is more art than tool. It would never get the hard use or see EDC with me. I feel that would detract from the beauty/collectability of the knife. And of course , if I lost or broke it, shame on me..

Which is why strength of the mechanism is'nt nearly as important to me as is how much I like the knife overall.
 
I own a number of customs and several high end "semi-production" knives (William Henry and Whitewing). Yes, some of the customs might be considered more art than tool. I also own several dozen production knives. The fit and finish on some of the production knives is really quite good. And the fit and finish on the William Henry and Whitewing knives is truly outstanding. However, I challenge anyone to find a production knife that has better fit and finish than either my TNT or my Lochsa. Both get carried and both get used just like all my other knives(not abused). After all, it's only money. :D
 
I find this discussion very interesting because of one aspect. Everyone talks about design, ergonomics, fit and finish, overall general appearance, and etc,etc. I don't see anyone mentioning edge retention. I grew up in a ranch/farm enviroment where a knife was an everday tool and got used an awful lot daily. In my 57(approx) years of knife usage, I have used an awful lot of different brands of folders and fixed blades. Edge retention with me is right at the top of the requirements. If a knife will not hold an edge very well then I don't give a damn about having it, regardless of what it looks like. I am finding out that what I call holding a good edge means something different to me than it does to some people.Ten/fifteen years ago you could not get the quality of steel in production knives that you can now. True, a lot of folders and fixed blades have alloys that were not available in production knives then. However, in the last 5-6 years I have not found but two production knives that I believed takes and holds an edge, including the Sebenza, as well as the customs that I have used. One is in S30V and the other is in 52100 carbon steel. I have gotten hold of one custom that a collector wanted to sell that does not hold an edge well enough for me(S90V). I don't buy to collect, I buy to use, so I don't buy that many in numbers. About 3 months ago I started making some fixed blades as a hobby and I'm having someone else do the tempering and am learning a little about edge retention through this experience.

Maybe I will get the spelling right eventually.
 
I own a pair of Al Mar SERE 2000, and I can't think of a "better" production folder around its' price-range. The fit, finish, and materials of the 2 that I own are totally top-notch.
 
If a factory and a custom maker were to make the exact same knife, (same steel, lock, etc) I think that both knives would perform exactly the same. The factory knife won't have any fancy elements like the custom, but it will perform. The factory knife will also be considerably cheaper to purchase. It really depends on if you are willing to pay for all the extras you get with a custom knife. I think that the custom makers do their homework when designing folders, however, the factories do a ton of R&D. When a factory decides to invest huge sums of money in developing a folder, everything has to be right. Some bad knives slip through, but I have also seen custom knives that were not as good as reject factory knives.

With compaines like Spyderco constantly raising the bar, the differences between custom and factory knives grow slimmer. I will stick to factory knives because of the great price/performance ratio. I would rather lose a $100.00 factory knife than a $500.00 custom. Custom knives are great, but I'm not really interested unless it is a unique design that is extremely visually appealing.
 
I also believe that a well engineered production knife can do anything that a custom knife can do. Its just that for me most of them are boring and just another tool. I don't purchase custom knives just because of function. For me they offer far more than that. They let me be part of the knifemaking process. The final product has some of me in it. That is never going to happen with a production knife. With custom knives I get to know the makers that I deal with and even get to know many of the ones I don't deal with. I feel more a part of the knife community and get to meet and become friends with some great people.

If all you are looking for is a dependable tool that will get the job done then there are many production knives that will fit your needs. They are made to tight tolerances, with excellent materials, top flight manufacturing processes and excellent customer service. You will be able to get all you require from these production knives. I would as well, but I am looking for something more from my knives and custom knives give me what I am looking for.

Can a custom maker produce folders that will be as reliable and well made as the ones being made by manufacturers? Certainly, but with so many makers out there you are going to run into quite a few that do not have the equipment, ability and knowledge to be able to do so. The chances of getting a bad custom knife are definitely higher than are your chances of getting a bad knife from one of the better manufacturers. Chances are though, if you do your homework, you will easily be able to find a custom knife that will be able to match the best production knives at anything they can do and it will do it with more style; and yes, more cost as well.
 
Ideally, both custom and production knives would be perfect fit and finish wise. But neither is the case. What I can't understand is how custom makers let inferior knives out of their shop. While a production company makes parts to certain tolerances that should work even when stacked in a worse case scenario, sometimes a batch of bad parts gets through. And with so many knives being made its hard to have a "competent" person look over each one to make sure its ok. And even if the tolerances are "ok", the outcome may not be perfect, simply good enough.

Customs on the other hand, unless the maker has CNC equipment, are not made to any specific tolerances. It is up to the skilled craftsman who knows knives in and out to make sure everything is fitted up and works perfect. This being the case, there should be no visible flaws with the knife when it is done because the maker should have looked at and tuned every aspect of the knife. Unfortunately I don't think this happens all the time.

The materials used on a production knife are probably chosen by weighing the quality and functionality of the finished product with cost, machinablity, and availability. Customs can be made without worrying about costs, excessive machine time, or the fact that a certain material may not be available next month or in a large quantity. But production companies have more resources for design and testing, computers for stress analysis, tools to test heat treatments, etc.

Both ways have there pros and cons, I think its hard to say if one is better than the other. But nothing beats having a knife made exactly the way you want it, or having a one of a kind knife, or actually getting to talk with the person building the knife. That is something that a production knife will never be able to match.
 
You are making a very big assumption as you run down your list of what happens in a production knife company. They are there to produce a large number of knives within a parameters that will give the customer what he/she wants at a price point that will sell. For functionality at a price point that sells, nope. A custom maker can't beat a production company.

One thing to remember, throughout history, most new ideas, innovations, what have you come from individuals, not big companies. Staying on our favorite topic, I am willing to bet that most patents you find pertaining to knives will be to individuals, not companies. I am also willing to bet you will find a handfull of individuals who have the majority of the patents. That is why companies are collaborating more and more with the custom maker. Custom makers have more incentive to come up with new ideas, that is how they grab a piece of the market and make their money.

More and more makers are skilled machinists and capable CNC programmers. So they are able to work to tolerances that were recently restricted to large companies.

If the custom maker is knowledgable about knives, how to make a lock properly, how grind a blade properly, understands edge geometry for a specific task, then he should be able to build a superior folder over a company. However, few makers really understand these things. We see most of them on the internet. List the best makers you can think of and then compare that list to the thousands of makers throughout the world. That is a very small list.

Things are quickly getting to a point where companies are producing knives of custom maker quality at a production made price. You can look at CRK and William Henry, but they are bordering on pure custom prices. I am thinking along the lines of what you are seeing from Spyderco, Camillus etc. Camillus Dominator $150. If Cammillus can come up with a way to put a little more finish on that knife, with out bumping the cost they will have cracked that barrier.

I think this topic and other like it miss the point of Custom knife making versus production. Custom makers are generaly there to make a tool to fit a need based around our desires and if we are working with one of the good makers, it will be close to a perfect knife for us. Plus, it's fun.

The production company makes knives that are off the rack. They get the job done and much cheaper. However, it isn;t the perfect tool based on what we want. And it isn't as much fun.
 
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