Superiority of Production Folders?

Well, I don't personally own a custom-made knife.
Why not?
IMHO, you just don't get enough for your money compared to production knives.
Maybe at one time custom-made knives were light years ahead of production knives, but that certainly is'nt the case today.

I also think that custom-makers themselves realize just how far production knives have come, and they have made an alliance with production companies.
While custom-maker and production company collaborations are not new, it really has come on strong in the last 15 years.
Spyderco, Benchmade, Gerber, CRKT, and plenty of others work hand-in-hand with the greatest custom-makers around.

We knife-lovers are living in a very good time to be sure.

Allen.
 
Dirk, I would be willing to bet that in recent times at least that most patents that pertain to knives are actually held by companies. The reason for this is the cost of getting a patent. Even many of the ideas that have originated with custom makers have been patented by the companies that have collaborated with these makers. It is true however that the custom makers were the ones to come up with these innovations.

It is also true that many makers are skilled machinists and very knowledgeable about metallurgy. Quite a few have learned to do CAD programs and are using CNC make their knives more consistent. This way of making knives is great for regular models, but is not practical for one-offs. It takes too much time to do a CAD program and set up a CNC machine to make it practical to make just one knife. The cost to the buyer would be enormous.

The world of custom knives is changing. There will probably always be the custom makers that work with hand and basic electric tools, but you will see more and more automated processes being employed by custom makers. The lines between high-end production knives and custom knives will blur even more.
 
No doubt the times are a changin'. That is one big reason why you see the collaborations. It's a good source of income for the custom maker to sell the use of his design. Easy money. So to speak.

As far as the maker using CNC technology not being able to make an affordable one off knife.... That would depend on the maker. I know a couple of makers that would be very true. They are very busy not only with their work, but with other projects as well. So it would be costly for them to do a one off. However, I truly believe that isn't the norm and the other makers using CNC could probably make a one off at a fairly reasonable price. I know you are looking at anywhere from 4hrs to 20 hrs to program some knives. They would arguably have close to the same time involved doing it by hand. With these changing times, these makers may have to make a choice between charging premium for a one off or accept that they might have to do this at a more reasonable price. They aren't there, yet. I think that time will come, but it is something we can't predict for sure.

If the future plays out that way, it will be both good and bad. Good becuase of the increased precision at a better price. Bad, because we will be leaving a time where making a knife by hand with tight tolerances was something to be marveled at and sought after. It's like everything else. That type of craftsmen ship will all but die, eventually.
 
I've seen some remarkably good production knives in the last year from Benchmade, Spyderco, Camillus, Lone Wolf, and Buck that equal custom knives that cost more than twice the price.

However, I think the only custom makers who are in danger are those who's skills are average, who have little sense of customer service, and those who have little sense for the business aspects of knife making.

There will always be room for the makers who truly build to customer requests, create knife art, and those innovators and designers who stay one step ahead of the production knife engineers and are willing to collaborate with production companies.

Thank the knife gods for customer makers. They are the ones who inspire us to challenge the the production companies to excel.
 
The original topic is "superiority of production folders." Personally, I'd say the worst made production folder is worse than the worst custom I've ever seen. Then, I'd say the best custom folder is better than any production folder I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of folders. Thus, no way in hell is a production folder superior than a custom, all things being as equal as apples and oranges.

Many if not most of the best production folders started as customs. Why? Because the true genius in design exists in the mind of the custom knifemaker.

Many of you know little of the production world. Some of the best ideas are not patented, because they are secrets. You'd be shocked how little design review is done, and how incompetent some of the reviewers are. You'd also probably be suprised at how many companies don't listen to customer feedback, but get most of their info from sales. Just because they listen on the phone, doesn't mean the information is processed by those that need to know.
 
Originally posted by brownshoe
The original topic is "superiority of production folders." Personally, I'd say the worst made production folder is worse than the worst custom I've ever seen. Then, I'd say the best custom folder is better than any production folder I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of folders. Thus, no way in hell is a production folder superior than a custom, all things being as equal as apples and oranges.
Click to expand...

In what way do you mean "better" and "worse"? Are you speaking in functional terms, or regarding finish and appearance?

I would be very interested to know just how a custom folder is functionally superior (in general usage) to a knife such as a D2 AFCK.

It's easy to go on about custom knives being an "art form" or come up with something about "the soul of the maker", but that has nothing to do with the actual function of the knife as a hand tool.

Regardless of whether the "true genius in design exists in the mind of the custom knifemaker", once he decides to license the results of that genius to a production company everything changes; because now we have the favorable design combined with the benefits of mass production. Prices come down and parts become more standardized for what is effectively the same knife.
 
It's possible that a high end production co. can offer consistantly higher quality knife than the average custom maker, but, much as i think a Sebenza is just about unbeatable in the F&F dept, there are a few makers who offer knives that are just as well made, and of course, involving more workmanship and finer detail.

As an example, the Buck/Mayo knife is a very good production knife, in fact, it could be called a semi custom like a Sebenza is also called sometimes, since they are made by teams and there is some hand finishing. But, as nice as the knife is at its price point, a real Mayo TnT absolutely blows it away in every respect, but why should that be the case? Many real Tnts have S30V blades as does the Buck version, both the Buck and real Mayo have Ti handles, the lock, in fact the whole knife is Tom's own design, so, again, why would Tom's real Tnts be clearly a better knife? Well, ill tell you why, he puts a nicer finish on the blades, puts more time into the edge bevels, makes sure the lock is just about perfect, as opposed to production knives where the lock engagement varies to an alarming degree. Makes sure the action is tight and smooth, Buck does this too, but to a far lesser degree. So, the answer is, Tom puts more time, effort and of course he has the skill, to make sure his knives are extremely well made, whereas Buck couldnt possibly acheive this at the price their knife sells at. And i expect this is true across the board with other makers.

There are a few makers who are excellent when it comes to consistantly well made knives and for me, according to my experiences thus far, they are Mayo, Carson, Obenauf, Boguszewski, and JW Smith for folders and Blackwood, Hossom, Dempsey, Denning, Hayes (MS) and most of the Mastersmiths who's knives i have seen. Im sure there are lots of others who's knives i havent yet had the opportunity to handle and maybe other forumites who would add to my list might chime in and do so.

I think of it this way, when i order a Sebenza sight unseen, it is one of a very few knives i am very confident will arrive in perfect functional condition, its like i KNOW the lock will be perfect, i KNOW the blade will be centered, well finished and nicely sharpened, i kNOW the action will be sikly smooth, basically, i KNOW it will be a nearly perfect knife, and yes, i have been disappointed in the past when ordering customs sight unseen from various makers, so, i stick with the few custom makers that in MY personal experience are just about as likely to deliver a knife as well made and flawless as a Sebenza, i hope makers arent offended by this, but honestly, its a high compliment in my mind since i think of a Sebenza as being as close to perfect as a knife can get, at least in terms of quality, precision, consistancy and F&F.

I dont think it has to be a crapshoot IF you choose from among the top makers.
 
I have a custom knife in ATS34 that has the best edge holding of any knife that I own. Heat treat was done by the maker not Bos. I have a custom damscus blade that outperforms other blades made of the same steel but heat treated by manufacturers.

I have a custom folder that I compared head to head with a small sebenza and the william henry's of the same price range. It fits my hand better than any production knife. Why? It has countoured handles done with the hand and eye of a master craftsman. Two of my customs with sharp points are sharper than any production knife. Why? Again, done with the hands of a master.

So, yes fishbulb you not only get a prettier knife but a better tool.

Keep buying production knives, hopefully the prices of customs will come down due to a lack of demand. :)
 
Thanks everybody. Very interesting responses thus far. Having not handled a large number of custom folders, I guess I don’t have much of an informed opinion on the subject. I will say that I do have my reservations with custom folders. Can a custom liner lock be more secure than the liner lock of my Military? Can a frame lock be made more dependable than the one on a Sebenza? Can an exotic styled lock be tougher than a Benchmade axis lock? Maybe.

I guess that if I were going to buy a custom folder right now, it would be something that stands uniquely above production models. Something like a custom slipjoint. Production slipjoints tend to have such bad fit and finish, and be such an outrageous crapshoot, that a custom may be very well worth the money. I might also get some far better steel choices than the usual 420HC or nondescript Solingen or surgical stainless steels. Scale choices would also abound in a custom slipjoint, instead of having to live with the usual yukky Delrin. Did I just say, “Yukky”?
 
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