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surface grinder question on motor

Discussion in 'Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers' started by razor-edge-knives, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    Hey guys, possible used purchase for me... looks like the motor says 230v/460v but on the 'electrical information' plate it says 460v 3 phase.

    Is there a way to wire it up for 230v and use a phase converter? (I think I've read there is such a thing) or worse case just hook up a VFD to it.

    I think it's hydraulic fed on the Z axis anyway... and I think I will need a new magnetic chuck. any insight is much appreciated!

    Sorry for the quality of the pics...

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Stang Bladeworks likes this.
  2. Stang Bladeworks

    Stang Bladeworks KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    541
    Feb 19, 2018
    If its dual rated there should be a wiring diagram somewhere on the nameplate on how to configure the jumpers for lower voltage. If you open up the electrical box on the motor and there are 6 or more leads thats a good sign. You will need to connect them a certain way to use 230v. If the first nameplate is on the motor itself you should be good. If not, as long as its the original motor it will work. As far as getting 3 phase just get a cheap vfd on amazon. I used one for mine and it works good. About $150. If you can post some more pics of the electrical i should be able to say with more certainty.
     
  3. Lieblad

    Lieblad

    Jul 24, 2015
    The dataplate clearly shows 230-460V. Is a similar plate on the motor itself ?
    I suspect that red tag just indicates as information to the factory maintenance crew how that machine was set up for work in its previous life.
     
    Keith Nix likes this.
  4. Stang Bladeworks

    Stang Bladeworks KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    541
    Feb 19, 2018
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  5. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    I don't have it yet - wanted to make sure it will work first :) Thanks for chiming up I will def. keep you posted! looks like it needs a new magnetic chuck doesn't it?

    the "pope" picture is the one on the motor. I won't 100% know until I get it in possession.
     
  6. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    Stang Bladeworks likes this.
  7. Josh Rider

    Josh Rider KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Sep 2, 2014
    I hooked my vfd up to mine and it has worked great for years.
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  8. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    Just switch the jumpers in the motor box and you will be good to go.
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  9. 12345678910

    12345678910

    Jul 13, 2009
    That motor plate shows yes you can do 220 3 phase

    but

    if it's hydraulic feed, there is a hydraulic pump and maybe solenoid valves

    In that case multiple motors and such- rotary phase convertor is the way to go.


    Wait until you have it, then dig into it.
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  10. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    Thanks so much for the advise on that, I had no clue. Will do
     
  11. Stang Bladeworks

    Stang Bladeworks KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    541
    Feb 19, 2018
    One thing i learned is that alot of people will use improper lubricants. There are zerks on the machines that are designed for way oil. There is a special tool to inject the oil. They look just like grease zerks so often you will find lithium grease inside. This traps the grit and damages the ways. If you look at my thread you will see some scars on my ways. I took the whole machine down to inspect the ways and clean it up. The guys there recommended i either scrape the ways or have it done professionally. If you notice any signs of lithium grease on any of the ways i would consider taking it down. It can be hard to find info on these older machines but its amazing how helpful people can be. Im no expert but all of this is still fresh in my mind. (Im almost done mine). If there is anything i can do to help let me know.
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  12. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    Thanks so much!

    I've been using this spindle oil for both my spindle and ways... What are you using?
     
    Stang Bladeworks likes this.
  13. Stang Bladeworks

    Stang Bladeworks KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    541
    Feb 19, 2018
    I grabbed some 30wt way oil based on the recommendations i recieved. I think its iso 68 grade. I haven't got to try it yet so I cant say how it is. I was told the way oil is designed to cling to surfaces better so it creates a layer between the ways instead of getting pushed out. I think you can use transmission oil in a pinch but the way oil is purpose designed for that application. I got 5 gallons for about $100 CAD. Its a bit hard to find but you probobly wont go through alot. Im sure one pale is a lifetime supply.
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  14. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    Thanks! Can you share exactly what way oil you got?

    Also another question... From reading through your other thread on practical machinist - is there a way for me to tell if the ways are damaged with everything assembled?
     
  15. Stang Bladeworks

    Stang Bladeworks KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    541
    Feb 19, 2018
    This is the oil i got from boss lubricants
    In my thread there were several types recommended that may be easier to find. 30wt seemed to be the general consensus.
    20190818_205034.jpg
    As far as the ways go you may be able to see parts of them from underneath but you cant see most of it without disassembly. I would check for signs of lithium grease and the general feel of the travel. As long as they are not completely ruined thay can be rescraped to various levels of accuracy. I got mine done for $800 CAD but it was hard to find a guy who could do it and they told me it was a favor and they would usually charge more. I hope this helps.
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  16. Drew Riley

    Drew Riley KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Oct 17, 2007
    I've got an old Reid 618 surface grinder myself, though it's not hydraulic. Being that the 460V is "hand engraved" (lol), I'd assume that whoever used the machine last simply has (at least) the spindle wired for 3 phase 460. The mag chuck controller (and POSSIBLY any other other motors or controls) is likely wired up for 110VAC single phase, or at least that's how mine is. I have a belt driven table feed on mine, and while the spindle is 3 phase, the table drive motor is single.

    Each motor should have its own plate to verify phase and voltage.

    If you can find an old service manual, you'll do yourself a favor to go through it. Check vintagemachinery.org, or throw up a request on some of the machinists forums. There are a few places that sell pdfs or hardcopies of a lot of those old machine manuals, but often times you can get the same manual for free if you ask the right person. A service manual will give you all of the schematics, part numbers and breakdowns, and suggested maintenance and repairs, setup, etc...

    FYI, I run my SG from a VFD with no issues.
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  17. Drew Riley

    Drew Riley KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Oct 17, 2007
    BTW, if you can have them power up AT LEAST the spindle, I'd have the seller do so. Check for runout and any vibration. Also check lead screw slop within the first couple inches of the chuck, where it was likely used the most.

    Surface grinders can be pretty "sensitive" to wear if not maintained correctly, and if the right parts have problems, they'll be prohibitively expensive to repair or replace, and you may never get the finishes or tolerances you're looking for. Your chuck looks like it could use a good cleaning at the very least, but it's hard to say from pics alone if it needs replaced or not.
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  18. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    Thanks man! How would I check for lead screw slop? Are you referring to backlash?
     
  19. Drew Riley

    Drew Riley KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Oct 17, 2007
    It’s a little more than backlash. Mine has a spot where my z carriage sometimes “sticks” after I crank it down a few thousands because of slop in the lead screw. If I don’t notice right away, sometimes the whole carriage will fall several thousands all at once. I need to figured out how to get the sliding covers off and inspect the nut and screw, as it may just need to be cleaned and lubed, but I suspect it needs adjusted or replaced.
     
  20. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    Ahh gotcha that makes sense now
     

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