Surface grinder

mbkingshane

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Oct 7, 2013
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Looking to buy my first surface grinder. A guy I know has a Walker Turner with a wheel not a belt. Does anyone know if this will work for knife making purposes? Sorry I'm just getting into knife making so I know very little. All my blades will be blacksmithed. So I thought this could work for getting the tangs flat, and possibly doing bevels but I'm not sure. Thanks is for your help!
 
You're not going to find any surface grinders that run belts, that weren't converted by knifemakers.

Industry doesn't convert them for a reason, it mitigates the primary advantage of a surface grinder, making things flat and parallel. It's not a popular opinion, but as someone who owns 4 surface grinders, 2 of which are converted to belts, and operates a SG for many hours a day, I will encourage you to learn the capabilities of a good SG with a stone before ever considering a belt conversion.

I can get a better than 400 grit belt finish, that will indicate to orders of magnitude more flat and parallel, with a 50 grit stone dressed properly, and ground properly, on a tight SG, than any belt converted grinder can achieve. The *ONLY* advantage a belt conversion has, is in hogging material at a high rate, although it's a stop gap to more efficient methods, such as face or slab milling, or blanchard grinding.

I use my belt converted large SG's that run 12 and 14" stones with hydro feeds, for one thing only, hogging damascus billets down to desired thickness. I don't have room at the moment for a large blanchard, although the moment I do, you can bet those grinders will be back to running stones exclusively.


The issue most have with SG's is either crap machines, or an unwillingness to learn to select stones, dress, and grind properly. I can't tell you how many times I've been complemented on a grinder finish for some blanks I've had laying around, by mastersmiths, asking how I got it. I just smile and say "with a stone".




Make sure the machine runs butter smooth, and that when you put your hand on the spindle, behind the wheel guard, that you feel no vibration, or hear any erratic noise. Of course, there will be some motor sound, and hydraulic feed machines can have quite a lot of hydrualic whine, but that's not an issue.

If all looks good, have the owner make a cut with a freshly dressed stone, and see that you don't get a choppy or wobbly finish, if so, you're gold.

In fairness, cheap unbalanced stones can cause the spindle or whole machine to vibrate. On smaller machines though, usually, norton stones can be run without balancing. I've never found one under 10" that needed to be balanced personally, but it's always a consideration. I do 90% of my work with the same stone, dress gently with a very small feed for a fine finish, dress quickly with a heavy feed for a more aggressive, quicker cutting finish.

Finish cuts on hardened steel are in the 0.0005 range, although you can hog (a few thou) much more with an aggressive wheel on thicker pieces you're going to finish in a second op. On the flip, with a ceramic belt on a contact wheel setup, you can feed 10-20 thou and walk away, compressing the wheel, as long as your machine can handle the load, and it'll keep cutting as the wheel expands, but the accuracy is relative.


I think most people with belt converted SG's assume they're getting much better accuracy than they are, which they'd realize quickly if they ever actually indicated the part for such.
 
Wow Javand thanks for all the great info! I'm hopefully looking at it later today. The only thing I think I'll need is the magnetic table as this doesn't have one. But that's ok I'm getting the SG super super cheap so I can get one at some point.
 
You're not going to find any surface grinders that run belts, that weren't converted by knifemakers.

Industry doesn't convert them for a reason, it mitigates the primary advantage of a surface grinder, making things flat and parallel. It's not a popular opinion, but as someone who owns 4 surface grinders, 2 of which are converted to belts, and operates a SG for many hours a day, I will encourage you to learn the capabilities of a good SG with a stone before ever considering a belt conversion.

I can get a better than 400 grit belt finish, that will indicate to orders of magnitude more flat and parallel, with a 50 grit stone dressed properly, and ground properly, on a tight SG, than any belt converted grinder can achieve. The *ONLY* advantage a belt conversion has, is in hogging material at a high rate, although it's a stop gap to more efficient methods, such as face or slab milling, or blanchard grinding.

I use my belt converted large SG's that run 12 and 14" stones with hydro feeds, for one thing only, hogging damascus billets down to desired thickness. I don't have room at the moment for a large blanchard, although the moment I do, you can bet those grinders will be back to running stones exclusively.


The issue most have with SG's is either crap machines, or an unwillingness to learn to select stones, dress, and grind properly. I can't tell you how many times I've been complemented on a grinder finish for some blanks I've had laying around, by mastersmiths, asking how I got it. I just smile and say "with a stone".




Make sure the machine runs butter smooth, and that when you put your hand on the spindle, behind the wheel guard, that you feel no vibration, or hear any erratic noise. Of course, there will be some motor sound, and hydraulic feed machines can have quite a lot of hydrualic whine, but that's not an issue.

If all looks good, have the owner make a cut with a freshly dressed stone, and see that you don't get a choppy or wobbly finish, if so, you're gold.

In fairness, cheap unbalanced stones can cause the spindle or whole machine to vibrate. On smaller machines though, usually, norton stones can be run without balancing. I've never found one under 10" that needed to be balanced personally, but it's always a consideration. I do 90% of my work with the same stone, dress gently with a very small feed for a fine finish, dress quickly with a heavy feed for a more aggressive, quicker cutting finish.

Finish cuts on hardened steel are in the 0.0005 range, although you can hog (a few thou) much more with an aggressive wheel on thicker pieces you're going to finish in a second op. On the flip, with a ceramic belt on a contact wheel setup, you can feed 10-20 thou and walk away, compressing the wheel, as long as your machine can handle the load, and it'll keep cutting as the wheel expands, but the accuracy is relative.


I think most people with belt converted SG's assume they're getting much better accuracy than they are, which they'd realize quickly if they ever actually indicated the part for such.
This blank was grind on stone . . .

11jw49l.jpg
 
A 46 grit stone will leave a finish better than you'd expect from a 320 grit belt. I had a friend's shop do some real precision grinding for me a while ago (not knife related) and the 120 grit stone he finished with left a damn near perfect mirror finish.
My dad and I have both had surface grinders for a while now. Him a 6x12 doall, myself a 6x20 G&L. I was planning on setting my bigger one up with belts when I finally have the space for it, but I'm really not sure that I will anymore...

Out of curiosity, what wheel width and step over do you guys run? It seems everyone I've talked to does it a bit differently. Really light cuts with a large step over or heavier cuts with a tiny stepover
 
Out of curiosity, what wheel width and step over do you guys run? It seems everyone I've talked to does it a bit differently. Really light cuts with a large step over or heavier cuts with a tiny stepover
I generally do .005" down & .020"-.030" over. Then for the finial finish go down to a .010"-.015" step over for a finer finish.
 
A 46 grit stone will leave a finish better than you'd expect from a 320 grit belt. I had a friend's shop do some real precision grinding for me a while ago (not knife related) and the 120 grit stone he finished with left a damn near perfect mirror finish.
My dad and I have both had surface grinders for a while now. Him a 6x12 doall, myself a 6x20 G&L. I was planning on setting my bigger one up with belts when I finally have the space for it, but I'm really not sure that I will anymore...

Out of curiosity, what wheel width and step over do you guys run? It seems everyone I've talked to does it a bit differently. Really light cuts with a large step over or heavier cuts with a tiny stepover

Stones and belts are definitely two different animals. I was amazed at the difference in finishes from a 50 grit wheel and a 50 grit piece of sand paper. haha

As for width, I don't think you're really gaining anything with using wider wheels, especially if you're stepping over. I'd stick with a 1" (1.125 wheel using 1" belts) as it's easier to buy 2x72 belts and just split them.

I think there's a little bit of a misconception out there that if you have a 2" wide wheel, you can make a single pass on a 1.5" blade with your belt converted surface grinder and get a perfect, flat finish. Well, this is essentially how the TW90's SG attachment works, and yeah, you will get a relatively flat and decent finish on a single width pass with clean belts, but if you want flatter and more parallel, you'll want to step over, and if you're stepping over, a 2" wide wheel is going to take twice and long to clear the piece as a 1" wide wheel, and you're really not going to gain anything appreciable, IMO.
 
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Don speaks the truth. There are nearly as many stones out there as there are steels to grind them with, and using a wheel that's optimized for one to try to get the same finish on another is often going to be a losing battle. Then there's dressing (and even balancing) the stone, which can widely impact the finish you'll get as well.
 
Don speaks the truth. There are nearly as many stones out there as there are steels to grind them with, and using a wheel that's optimized for one to try to get the same finish on another is often going to be a losing battle. Then there's dressing (and even balancing) the stone, which can widely impact the finish you'll get as well.
Is there a jig you buy to dress stones?
 
Is there a jig you buy to dress stones?

Most guys use a single point diamond dresser to dress their wheels. You can buy holders for them that you put on your mag chuck (I think most guys just make them by drilling into a piece of bar stock and putting in a set screw), and these will hold your point at the requisite angle, and then you can just traverse the point across the face of the wheel.
The basic jig is very simple, though you can also get into more complex fixtures that profile/contour the wheel for more advanced operations.

Dressing has it's own idiosyncrasies to be sure, and there's a couple of different techniques on getting a proper dress depending on wheel type, desired finish, etc... Obviously you want your wheel to be balanced before you dress, and above all, you want to make sure your machine is warmed up, or you may as well not dress the wheel at all. Position and angle of the dresser certainly play a role as well, but the main thing is that you don't want the wheel pushing INTO the dresser, but going away from it, for obvious reasons.

Then there's coarse dressing vs fine dressing, etc.... which all plays a different role in finishing based on stone and material type.

Now, I'm by no means an expert at surface grinding, but I can tell you this: If you're looking for perfect finishes and tolerances within .0002" or better, there's a LOT more too it than just throwing any old stone on and hitting the go button. :D I spent hours on my machine making all kinds of changes and adjustments trying to chase this finish or that finish with stones AND belts, and there's a lot of little things that make big differences in results, and if you have one little thing wrong, you'll be chasing your tail until there's no wheel left. ;)

Fortunately, I find it fun to tune and tweak things and learn what affects what and which setup is the best for what I'm looking for. Other user's mileages may vary.
 
The fastest way to remove material with a stone is a deep depth of cut and small step over. Using Don's example (assuming you wanted to remove a total of .032") of .005 down and .030 over, and reversing it to .030 down and .005 over, you're removing the same cubic inches of material per pass, but the friable wheel is breaking down in a radius and using a greater amount of the depth of the wheel as a cutting surface. Meaning you have to dress it less often in the course of removing that.

However if you're only removing .005 per side that's a moot point.

The only value I personally see in a belt conversion is on a higher hp machine meant for hogging forged or laminated billets relatively flat, or, if running dry is more important to you than being truly flat and parallel. If I had only one surface grinder it would be a stone, and I would run it with coolant. If I had two, I would consider converting one solely for prepping forged billets.

Some tricks to improving finishes with a stone have already been mentioned. Dress the wheel with a slow cross feed. Reduce the stepover. Another is to reduce the depth of cut progressively, say going from .005" per pass, to .001, then .0005", finishing with 1 or 2 spark out passes. And if you have a hydraulic machine, using a constant crossfeed will generally improve it even further. You can do this on a manual but it's like rubbing your tummy and patting your head.
 
The fastest way to remove material with a stone is a deep depth of cut and small step over. Using Don's example (assuming you wanted to remove a total of .032") of .005 down and .030 over, and reversing it to .030 down and .005 over, you're removing the same cubic inches of material per pass, but the friable wheel is breaking down in a radius and using a greater amount of the depth of the wheel as a cutting surface. Meaning you have to dress it less often in the course of removing that.

However if you're only removing .005 per side that's a moot point.

The only value I personally see in a belt conversion is on a higher hp machine meant for hogging forged or laminated billets relatively flat, or, if running dry is more important to you than being truly flat and parallel. If I had only one surface grinder it would be a stone, and I would run it with coolant. If I had two, I would consider converting one solely for prepping forged billets.

Some tricks to improving finishes with a stone have already been mentioned. Dress the wheel with a slow cross feed. Reduce the stepover. Another is to reduce the depth of cut progressively, say going from .005" per pass, to .001, then .0005", finishing with 1 or 2 spark out passes. And if you have a hydraulic machine, using a constant crossfeed will generally improve it even further. You can do this on a manual but it's like rubbing your tummy and patting your head.


Yeah, I don't ever mean to imply that a belt conversion doesn't have it's merits. It just seems to be regarded in our community as mandatory, and 90% of the people that have them, aren't actually using it for it's major advantage, hogging, where accuracy is second to speed.

Even if you do need this, as I do for my damascus business, I highly recommend a conversion be done in such a way that you can switch back and forth. I mounted the tension arm for my main grinder on top of the wheel guard, and cut slots in the top of the guard to allow the belt to pass through. I can switch back to stones just as quick as changing a stone normally.

Bear in mind with this machine, which has a 3hp spindle motor, and hydraulic auto feeds in each axis, that I can run a 2" wide contact wheel, with full engagement. Which is really nice when grinding any billets 2" wide or under. I can set the Z, engage the traverse auto feed, walk away, come back 20 mins later and have a flat billet, make a couple of light clean up passes, and flip it over. This saves me hours of work compared to a stone.

However, when it comes to making knives, I *never* use a belt on the SG, I do however, use a SG with a stone for literally every knife I make.
 
For flattening Damascus billets are you hogging it all with a surface grinder due to a large mill not being available, or is it faster to just grind it all the way?
I would have thought a large face mill on something Cincinnati like would be much more productive at that
 
For flattening Damascus billets are you hogging it all with a surface grinder due to a large mill not being available, or is it faster to just grind it all the way?
I would have thought a large face mill on something Cincinnati like would be much more productive at that

I have a large K&T vert, and always intend to rig up a system for roughing billets but never get around to it. The big trick is work holding, without having to sacrifice any significant portion of the billet end, or have a second op milling the hold down area when you flip.

A mag table for the mill would be nice, but you can't get away with a standard surface grinder permanent mag chuck bolted to the mill, and hog at the rate a big mill can handle safely.

It's definitely something I intend to play with if work ever allows.

Although I've always thought a large horizontal would be the best for this. It's the type of op they were built for.


The thing is though, I'm not certain either will be more efficient from a standpoint of how much of my "attentive time" it'll take. The advantage of a large surface grinder with a contact wheel in this case is that I can feed the Z until the machine starts bogging slightly from load, with the auto feed on, walk away, and come back 20 mins later, and either do a quick clean up, or repeat.

The time it takes grinding isn't relevant, just the time I spend actively manning the machine.


That wont be the case with a mill, so unless I can do it in one or two passes, and get a finish good enough that I don't have to grind it further, it won't have any real advantage.

On the other hand, I do think that it's achievable, with the right setup, mill, and tooling, although, that's mostly a leap of faith.
 
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You're not going to find any surface grinders that run belts, that weren't converted by knifemakers.

Industry doesn't convert them for a reason, it mitigates the primary advantage of a surface grinder, making things flat and parallel. It's not a popular opinion, but as someone who owns 4 surface grinders, 2 of which are converted to belts, and operates a SG for many hours a day, I will encourage you to learn the capabilities of a good SG with a stone before ever considering a belt conversion.

I can get a better than 400 grit belt finish, that will indicate to orders of magnitude more flat and parallel, with a 50 grit stone dressed properly, and ground properly, on a tight SG, than any belt converted grinder can achieve. The *ONLY* advantage a belt conversion has, is in hogging material at a high rate, although it's a stop gap to more efficient methods, such as face or slab milling, or blanchard grinding.

I use my belt converted large SG's that run 12 and 14" stones with hydro feeds, for one thing only, hogging damascus billets down to desired thickness. I don't have room at the moment for a large blanchard, although the moment I do, you can bet those grinders will be back to running stones exclusively.


The issue most have with SG's is either crap machines, or an unwillingness to learn to select stones, dress, and grind properly. I can't tell you how many times I've been complemented on a grinder finish for some blanks I've had laying around, by mastersmiths, asking how I got it. I just smile and say "with a stone".




Make sure the machine runs butter smooth, and that when you put your hand on the spindle, behind the wheel guard, that you feel no vibration, or hear any erratic noise. Of course, there will be some motor sound, and hydraulic feed machines can have quite a lot of hydrualic whine, but that's not an issue.

If all looks good, have the owner make a cut with a freshly dressed stone, and see that you don't get a choppy or wobbly finish, if so, you're gold.

In fairness, cheap unbalanced stones can cause the spindle or whole machine to vibrate. On smaller machines though, usually, norton stones can be run without balancing. I've never found one under 10" that needed to be balanced personally, but it's always a consideration. I do 90% of my work with the same stone, dress gently with a very small feed for a fine finish, dress quickly with a heavy feed for a more aggressive, quicker cutting finish.

Finish cuts on hardened steel are in the 0.0005 range, although you can hog (a few thou) much more with an aggressive wheel on thicker pieces you're going to finish in a second op. On the flip, with a ceramic belt on a contact wheel setup, you can feed 10-20 thou and walk away, compressing the wheel, as long as your machine can handle the load, and it'll keep cutting as the wheel expands, but the accuracy is relative.


I think most people with belt converted SG's assume they're getting much better accuracy than they are, which they'd realize quickly if they ever actually indicated the part for such.

Spot on post! I started learning on a surface grinder that was flawed, so not only was I not sure of my technique but I wasn't sure if it was me or the SG causing the issue (and I had the correct wheel per a Norton rep). Turns out that my spindle had lost the preload so wasn't running tight... Still have to fix that, or scrap the machine. They wanted something like $2300 to "rebuild" the spindle, which is basically two bearings pressed onto a shaft. I'll buy a new grizzly SG for that!
 
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