Surface grinder

Some real good advice you've been getting there. I run an 8x24" auto feed surface grinder, with 3 hp spindle. At first I ran a stone, then added coolant when it became apparent that any real hogging would require it. However, since most of what I use it for is billet work, I converted to run belts. It can be changed back pretty easily should I need that. However, I can hold .001" over a large workpiece and that's good for pretty much everything I do. A nice thing about belts is that those ceramics that get dog tired on your 2x72, freehanding, will cut for a long time still on the surface grinder. Regarding milling vs. grinding for billets, one big advantage is that the SG running belts does not much care about hard spots or whether the billet is normalized or annealed or whatever. That's the same reason I cut off with abrasive in most cases- takes a lot more time to be thermal cycling in between welding processes, just to be able to cut the material. Plus, it's way more cost effective to be extending the life of your ceramic belts using your SG, rather than worrying about expensive face mills running expensive carbid inserts, avoiding interrupted cuts while not taking too much off, and all the setup time and work holding issues that Javan mentions. Another point of his I'll repeat is how handy it is to just set it to work and walk away...
And if you ever get into sanmai kitchen knives, wowee an SG is the best. You want to turn big round 410 forged down into flatbar into thin, precision thickness sized stock for cladding, it's the best way I know.
 
I have two surface grinders, one with stones and automatic table feed. That is a real nice machine with a fairly new electro magnetic chuck, built in diamond dresser and quite a few new safety features. My older WWII vintage manual SG is the one I started with and converted to belts a while ago.

I have been amazed at how accuarte and useful the SG with belts is. I use it way more than the one with stones. I wish I had converted the manual machines 10 years ago!

Both of my SG have dust collection equipement, which is a total must have in my opinion.

If I had to get rid on one of the machines I would keep the one with belts. Never thought I would end up saying that, but...
The SG with a belt is ideal for grinding all kinds of non-magnetic material from Ti to G10 to wood, stuff I would neve do on a stone. Plus it is so easy to slap something on the table and get it flat when buidling fixtures and all the other crap that comes up. Not to mention surface grinding heat treated blades.

A few things I have learned about SG over the last 15 years:

• Surface grinders with stones are very tricky to use and are VERY DANGEROUS if you make a mistake or do something dumb. Learning to get good consistent results on a SG is much more difficult than learning CNC milling. A SG with belts is WAY more forgiving and much less dangerous, allthough they are still potentially dangerous.

• If you plan on getting any real production work done with stones you must have a system to work with grinding emulsion or some type of cooling. Or you need the patience of Job.

• Be sure and get a dust collection system and be aware of the fire hazard, in other words don't just hook your shop vac up to machine and wait for it to catch fire. Seen it happen, ain't pretty.

• If you have the possibility to spend time in a grinding shop and learn the basics of SG and SG safety, DO IT! It is so easy to make a mistake and the older machines knifemakers end up with usually lack the modern safety features of the newer machines. At the very least, read up all you can before hitting the start button!

Good luck!
 
Some real good advice you've been getting there. I run an 8x24" auto feed surface grinder, with 3 hp spindle. At first I ran a stone, then added coolant when it became apparent that any real hogging would require it. However, since most of what I use it for is billet work, I converted to run belts. It can be changed back pretty easily should I need that. However, I can hold .001" over a large workpiece and that's good for pretty much everything I do. A nice thing about belts is that those ceramics that get dog tired on your 2x72, freehanding, will cut for a long time still on the surface grinder. Regarding milling vs. grinding for billets, one big advantage is that the SG running belts does not much care about hard spots or whether the billet is normalized or annealed or whatever. That's the same reason I cut off with abrasive in most cases- takes a lot more time to be thermal cycling in between welding processes, just to be able to cut the material. Plus, it's way more cost effective to be extending the life of your ceramic belts using your SG, rather than worrying about expensive face mills running expensive carbid inserts, avoiding interrupted cuts while not taking too much off, and all the setup time and work holding issues that Javan mentions. Another point of his I'll repeat is how handy it is to just set it to work and walk away...
And if you ever get into sanmai kitchen knives, wowee an SG is the best. You want to turn big round 410 forged down into flatbar into thin, precision thickness sized stock for cladding, it's the best way I know.



I agree with most of this, but I will say that the whole "used belt" thing has never worked well for me. Maybe I'm too impatient, but in my experience dull belts from the 2x72 are pretty crap for grinding billets also, they load up fast, and seem to really induce a lot of stress and heat. They also tend to burnish the outside of the billets, which ends up requiring me to do an extra clean-up step, if I want to etch the billet for the customer to see the pattern. Without doing that, it doesn't etch worth a damn. Not saying I don't use old belts, but I find myself constantly regretting it. ;) I still haven't figured out the best belt value for grinding billets.

I will say that once I started pickling the scale off all my billets before surface grinding, belts are much more effective and lasting. Especially with the rolling mill, which seems to leave a super thick layer of seemingly compressed scale on the outside of billets for some reason.




I wanted to add Salem; I cut all my billets, without any annealing or thermal cycling (until after I'm done working them, obviously I anneal or TC for the customer), using a horizontal bandsaw and premium blades. I *hate* abrasive saws, they're horrible for your health, lungs, ears, everything, and they tend to really eat a lot of billet from kerf. Obviously if you're using L6 or making stainless damascus (which is the only reason I have one), you don't have much choice, but I've had zero issue cutting my billets super aggressively using the M71 premium high production blades from sawblade.com in fact, they'll cut faster than I'm comfortable with, and I've never worn one out cutting damascus. I usually screw it up cutting something really random, or dull it by cutting through rag micarta (which is hell on blades).

I buy the 3-4 TPI blades and keep them in my bigger horizontal, which has hydraulic downfeed, and run's 1" tall by 0.035" thick blades, running at 200 SFPM. I'm sure I could run at 300 which is that saw's max, but don't feel comfortable pushing it. Obviously using coolant (Trim Microsol 585xt, which I run in all my machines btw, was recommended by Nathan, and has been boss for me, no maintenance, and doesn't matter if it sits for months).


The only thing I've ever had trouble cutting with this saw and these blades, are non-annealed stainless billets (no go), and spring tempered 15n20 from Uddeholm, which is will cut, just slowly and kills the blades fast.
 
I've never used a surface grinder for any damascus work, only an angle grinder with a snagging wheel. But I can see where a big auto SG with ceramic belts would work well for prepping billets & would be useful.

I use the SG 90% of the time for folder blades, spines, springs, bolsters, etc. Not much hogging, just getting parts flat, parallel & the thickness I need.
 
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did anybody had a problem with thin SS (Elmax, CPM S35VN, 4034, etc) of bending and/or heat lines? i have coolant and everything, but it's driving me nuts!!!

I tried what don hanson said, with the deep grinding, no more heat lines.. but i still have a warp :S

I'm running my SG with stone and lots..(LOTS) of coolant.
 
Thin aeb-L in particular seems rather bad about that.
I found keeping the stone dressed, about the same DOC don suggested, but cut the stepover down to 10 thou or so.
You can get away with a little more stepover, but it requires such frequent dressing that the smaller stepover ends up being faster once I consider the time spent cranking the spindle up and down a few inches to fit the dresser on the chuck. On a doall that takes quite a long time cranking.
One of these days I'll modify one of the toe clamps holding the chuck down to hold a dresser. Save having to move the wheel up and down.

Also I've found the coolant makes a difference. Proper grinding coolant is great, but the wrong (or too thickly mixed) coolant will just cause the wheel to clog, and make everything go far worse.
 
AEB-L does better on an SG with belts, as far as avoiding warp. I did run a stone and coolant on it, but it would still warp if cut and stepover were aggressive at all. Belts are not so bad but with much heat buildup it can still cup; since it's not all that magnetic compared to say, 1080.
I find that AEB-L will continue to warp back and forth throughout grinding, but much less after hardening.
If I have to surface grind it I do it before hardening, straighten as necessary with a soft faced hammer over a leather pad on the anvil, and then even do the cryo step in plates. After HT I'll grind bevels, sharp belts only, and alternate sides to keep it straight.
 
Stainless is always a bitch. Talk to a local Norton rep and they'll likely give you a stone for free to try, although don't go out of your way to describe how "small" your business is and dissuade them. ;)

Are you using flood or mist coolant? IMO for grinding you want a near water like viscosity, synthetic or semi.

If it's hard stainless, and you're having problems with warp with a light DOC, it's because you've got either too fine, or too tight structured wheel. Problem is those highly friable AO wheels just seem to suck at stainless. I recommend trying a Norton SG (ceramic) wheel, but I'd talk to the rep and figure out which one will work best depending on your machine.


You shouldn't have any heat lines with flood coolant and even a reasonable stone with a light depth of cut. Deep cuts will induce stress and cause warp, it's a given IMO. Traverse speed is a big factor also, for finish cuts I favor a very fast traverse and a low DOC (0.0005 or half that) with half wheel thickness step-over per pass on my machine that run's 12x1" stones.

Effective roughing and finish cuts are always polar opposites in terms of DOC and stepover IMO, but roughing cuts should be used with extreme caution on stainless that is hardened or thinner than 1/4" unless you're prepared to anneal and straighten.


Technique Don describes is effective if you're prepared to flip the work piece often and grind evenly side to side. Personally, I find this a chore and only do so when doing finish cuts on a knife where I need to shim to compensate for something. Personally, I only take heavy cuts pre-HT, when I have all the latitude in the world to straighten at my convenience later. Stainless though, once it gets thin enough, even with optimal equipment and technique, can simply be a question of balance. Grind one side, watch it warp, flip it, grind the other side, watch it go back, grind some more, etc, repeat.

Honestly a stress relieving cycle or final temper, is something we should all be doing, and is pretty standard in industry. Usually, 25 degrees lower than the final primary temper, after any machining (even finish grinding) for an hour, will net significant gains.
 
I highly recommend to all stone users to convert your machine to a solid aluminum wheel with a belt.

Use 3m 984 belts for roughing and structured belts for finishing. You will save tons of time and frustration.

I use mine for everything, flattening handle material, tapering tangs, roughing bevels on chef knives, distal taper etc.

I can taper a tang in just a couple of minutes. If I had to start over replacing my shop, a surface grinder with a solid wheel would be the second thing I would buy right after a belt grinder.

Good belts are a must, cheap belts do not work.

Hoss
 
I highly recommend to all stone users to convert your machine to a solid aluminum wheel with a belt.

Use 3m 984 belts for roughing and structured belts for finishing. You will save tons of time and frustration.

I use mine for everything, flattening handle material, tapering tangs, roughing bevels on chef knives, distal taper etc.

I can taper a tang in just a couple of minutes. If I had to start over replacing my shop, a surface grinder with a solid wheel would be the second thing I would buy right after a belt grinder.

Good belts are a must, cheap belts do not work.

Hoss

I second that emotion! ;-)
Allthough I use a 90 duro serrated wheel on my machine, the alu wheel does sound interesting. I have a few extra flanges, I may just have one made up and try it out.

For years I was skeptical regarding belts... Man was I wrong, for knife making, belts on a SG are fantastic.

PS: Forgot to mention, I recently had a demo here in the shop for a high quality vacuum table that would fit the SG. Wow. Very interesting for holding all kinds of non-magnetic parts, only drawback, to really get enough use out of it, you need a vacuum pump. Still, very tempting, since I could also use it on the milling machines...
 
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You demoed a vacuum table that had sufficient holding power for milling? I used to use one for grinding carbide punches and it still required blocking the parts up, I don't see how it would handle mill forces. But it would be really cool if they could now.
 
3M 984 belts were designed to be used with a solid wheel, it helps fracture the grit down and stays sharp. I use belts first on the 2 x 72 grinder and then use them on the SG. I get lots of life from them.

Hoss
 
I highly recommend to all stone users to convert your machine to a solid aluminum wheel with a belt.

Use 3m 984 belts for roughing and structured belts for finishing. You will save tons of time and frustration.

I use mine for everything, flattening handle material, tapering tangs, roughing bevels on chef knives, distal taper etc.

I can taper a tang in just a couple of minutes. If I had to start over replacing my shop, a surface grinder with a solid wheel would be the second thing I would buy right after a belt grinder.

Good belts are a must, cheap belts do not work.

Hoss

Hoss, would you mind going over your tapering tang method. I did a couple and it really took me twice as long as it did on my flat platen. I'm sure it's something I'm not doing right. I'm using a serrated wheel with fresh 36 grit belts for the initial taper.
 
Hi guys! Great tips in here!
Two questions:
For the ones using stones, do you use the same stone for carbon and stainless? Would be better a specific one for stainless? I have that problem about warping JPuri mentioned.

And about belts, I asume you gave to dress the belt. Is that right?
Thanks!!!
Javier
 
Set up to clean up, .165 down to .050 in 3 min 46 sec.

There is a permanent magnetic chuck on top of the electromagnetic with a shim/shims propping it up.

Hoss
 

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That would depend on the belt to some extent. On structured belts or higher end traditional belts you wouldn't.
But a cheap lap spliced belt would be absolutely unusable
 
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