survival firearm

You know guys you shouldn't be putting too much faith in buck shot for bear medicine. It's not even that great for people past 25 yards.
In you average 12 ga. buck shot round you have nine 36 cal soft lead balls probably weighing less than 80 grns each going around 1200 to 1400 fps. Thats like a magaine full of 380 pistol rounds. Would you hunt bear with a 380? The rule of thumb for buck shot is that the pattern opens up about 1" per yard. At 25 yards on a man sized target you are lucky to get 5 hits and few of them in the kill zone. Fortunately people tend to be a little easier to put down than an angry bear.
Granted up close say within 7 yard you have a nice tight patern and slug like performance and that might stop a bear if you get a good hit but do you really want to be that close to an angry bear and a single round of buck shot to stop it.
Where buckshot really shines as a man stopper and got it's reputation is at across the room distance where the patern is tight and you are putting all those lead balls inside some alpha hotels chest cavity. You would also be surprised to know how easy it is to miss with a shotgun at close range beacuse of the tight patern.
Don't believe anything Hollywood tells you about guns. Buckshot doesn't blow doors of their hinges or make cars explode and it doesn't always put a man down.
 
Is there no love for the Scout Rifle concept/platform? This is the role it was designed to fill.

http://home.netcom.com/~chingesh/scoutrifle.html

http://www.steyrscout.org/general.htm

The Steyr example shown above is the brainchild of a large proponent of the scout-type rifle, and is pretty well thought out.

"A general purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target."
-- Jeff Cooper, To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth

The basic notion is to create a light, rugged rifle that you could trust to take into the field to fill a variety of roles against a variety of targets. As the sites list most of the specific features, I'll leave them there.

If you're concerned about hunting, then you've got a .308 rifle which will handle most major game in North America. Separate loadings will take smaller game in a pinch, as well (though a .22 pistol might be a good backup). If you're worried about defense, the platform is well suited to stopping both 4 and 2 legged problems.

It has excellent balance, it's lightweight, has reserve iron sights, and the forward mounted scope allows for quick and accurate snap shooting. (The Steyr, incidentally, also has a built in mag holder in rear of the stock, as well as a built in bipod.) A bolt-action rifle also eases concerns about reliability that a more complicated lever-action, semi-auto or even pump rifle might bring.

The shotgun will likely weigh a similar amount (if not more), but doesn't afford the same range or precision. Also, only the much heavier/bulkier slugs will be very trustworthy in a defensive situation (doubly true against 4-legged beasts). A .22 rifle will be an excellent small-game getter, but will of course fall short in defense against any type of creature, or in getting larger game. It doesn't fulfill enough roles to justify it's weight.

Carrying a do-all, large-bore pistol/revolver is possible, but hunting with a handgun is not necessarily a mean feat, particularly if you're already half starved and freezing.

I don't post this in the hopes of brewing any conflict, but rather to make sure that those without much shooting experience are aware of another excellent option than what they've been presented with. I also haven't intended to 'bash' anyones elses choices, as the choice is certainly very individualized.

-Take care
 
FULMTALJKT said:
You know guys you shouldn't be putting too much faith in buck shot for bear medicine. It's not even that great for people past 25 yards.
In you average 12 ga. buck shot round you have nine 36 cal soft lead balls probably weighing less than 80 grns each going around 1200 to 1400 fps. Thats like a magaine full of 380 pistol rounds. Would you hunt bear with a 380? The rule of thumb for buck shot is that the pattern opens up about 1" per yard. At 25 yards on a man sized target you are lucky to get 5 hits and few of them in the kill zone. Fortunately people tend to be a little easier to put down than an angry bear.
Granted up close say within 7 yard you have a nice tight patern and slug like performance and that might stop a bear if you get a good hit but do you really want to be that close to an angry bear and a single round of buck shot to stop it.
Where buckshot really shines as a man stopper and got it's reputation is at across the room distance where the patern is tight and you are putting all those lead balls inside some alpha hotels chest cavity. You would also be surprised to know how easy it is to miss with a shotgun at close range beacuse of the tight patern.
Don't believe anything Hollywood tells you about guns. Buckshot doesn't blow doors of their hinges or make cars explode and it doesn't always put a man down.
Click to expand...

In most instances everything you said is 100% true and I agree with every word, however buckshot can be very effective even at some surprising ranges. I shoot remington 1187 shotguns with Kick's industrys choke tubes, no I am not connected or iffiliated with Kicks in any way, their buck kicker chokes will throw very tight buck shot patterns. With Federal premium 3" magnum 00 buck I regularly get 100% patterns in a 30" circle at 40 yards, I killed a doe a few weeks ago at 30 yards and put 11, .32 caliber buck shot in a pattern the size of my fist, folks that is devasting, man, bear or deer.

I don't think I would use buck shot as bear defense, a slug makes much more sense, but with the right gun, choke, and load, buckshot will put meat on the table.

BTW I don't believe anything hollywood says especially when it comes to guns. Chris
 
Thankyou Chris. I've taken a truckload of deer with buckshot over the years. I usually also have a slug in the shotgun as well for longer ranges. On self defense, buckshot is too light for a bear hunting round, but I'd trade a .22 and my best running shoes for it if a bear attacked me. I am yet to meet the man who will volunteer to let me shoot him at 40 yards with a load of buck and a improved choke.
 
The Steyer is pretty nice, but for almost 3000 bucks?
Espically for a beginner, thats a lot of dough.

Sorry, 2000 for a bare rifle.
 
SpookyPistolero said:
Is there no love for the Scout Rifle concept/platform? This is the role it was designed to fill.

http://home.netcom.com/~chingesh/scoutrifle.html

http://www.steyrscout.org/general.htm

The Steyr example shown above is the brainchild of a large proponent of the scout-type rifle, and is pretty well thought out.

"A general purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target."
-- Jeff Cooper, To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth

The basic notion is to create a light, rugged rifle that you could trust to take into the field to fill a variety of roles against a variety of targets. As the sites list most of the specific features, I'll leave them there.

If you're concerned about hunting, then you've got a .308 rifle which will handle most major game in North America. Separate loadings will take smaller game in a pinch, as well (though a .22 pistol might be a good backup). If you're worried about defense, the platform is well suited to stopping both 4 and 2 legged problems.

It has excellent balance, it's lightweight, has reserve iron sights, and the forward mounted scope allows for quick and accurate snap shooting. (The Steyr, incidentally, also has a built in mag holder in rear of the stock, as well as a built in bipod.) A bolt-action rifle also eases concerns about reliability that a more complicated lever-action, semi-auto or even pump rifle might bring.

The shotgun will likely weigh a similar amount (if not more), but doesn't afford the same range or precision. Also, only the much heavier/bulkier slugs will be very trustworthy in a defensive situation (doubly true against 4-legged beasts). A .22 rifle will be an excellent small-game getter, but will of course fall short in defense against any type of creature, or in getting larger game. It doesn't fulfill enough roles to justify it's weight.

Carrying a do-all, large-bore pistol/revolver is possible, but hunting with a handgun is not necessarily a mean feat, particularly if you're already half starved and freezing.

I don't post this in the hopes of brewing any conflict, but rather to make sure that those without much shooting experience are aware of another excellent option than what they've been presented with. I also haven't intended to 'bash' anyones elses choices, as the choice is certainly very individualized.

-Take care
Click to expand...

A precision rifle would without a doubt would not be my first pick, or in my top 3 for that matter. To finnicky, and complicated, in a survival situation I really don't think I will be sniping deer at 600 meters but rather shooting a rabbit at 20. I can take game for the next 5 years with my nef 20 bore without cleaning it or checking the zero, can you say the same about your steyr? If I were to pick a centerfire rifle I would probably opt for a 223 bolt action, I can carry much more ammo, something along the lines of a CZ 527 with a peep sight . Chris
 
runningboar said:
In most instances everything you said is 100% true and I agree with every word, however buckshot can be very effective even at some surprising ranges. I shoot remington 1187 shotguns with Kick's industrys choke tubes, no I am not connected or iffiliated with Kicks in any way, their buck kicker chokes will throw very tight buck shot patterns. With Federal premium 3" magnum 00 buck I regularly get 100% patterns in a 30" circle at 40 yards, I killed a doe a few weeks ago at 30 yards and put 11, .32 caliber buck shot in a pattern the size of my fist, folks that is devasting, man, bear or deer.

I don't think I would use buck shot as bear defense, a slug makes much more sense, but with the right gun, choke, and load, buckshot will put meat on the table.

BTW I don't believe anything hollywood says especially when it comes to guns. Chris
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Guys I wasn't saying that buck shot isn't any good for large game. I know its been used for years and brings in plenty of game especially with some of the new guns and chokes made just for that purpose, But thats not what I was seeing dicussed. I was seeing post about short barrel singles and double barreled guns none of which are going to be choked tight enough without custom work to do what your talking about.
At work I use a Remington 870 with a 14" rifle sighted barrel that has been modified by Vang Comp, I shoots nice tight paterns with buckshot and slugs like a rifle and I would feel very comfortable carring it loaded with slugs in bear country but it would not be my choice for a survival gun. Would you choose your 1187 as your primary survival gun, and do you use a shotgun because you like it or because you are forced to by law in your state?
 
SpookyPistolero said:
Is there no love for the Scout Rifle concept/platform? This is the role it was designed to fill.
Click to expand...

Yup..I have one and it is my favourite caribou rifle. Until the change of hunting regs we would travel 300 miles many by ice road and fill up the truck with boo. The Steyer was (and is) an incredible multi target device.

Mine is way to dear to ride in the canoe, komatiq ect though.

Use to be a Jungle Carbine fit the bill but they are getting rare too.
An abused second hand Mohawk 600 in 308 might do the trick. For me the wifes Stevens 325B in 30-30 with good bullets is a pretty darn good choice. The new Hornady LeverRevolution is pretty hot stuff.
 
FULMTALJKT said:
Guys I wasn't saying that buck shot isn't any good for large game. I know its been used for years and brings in plenty of game especially with some of the new guns and chokes made just for that purpose, But thats not what I was seeing dicussed. I was seeing post about short barrel singles and double barreled guns none of which are going to be choked tight enough without custom work to do what your talking about.
At work I use a Remington 870 with a 14" rifle sighted barrel that has been modified by Vang Comp, I shoots nice tight paterns with buckshot and slugs like a rifle and I would feel very comfortable carring it loaded with slugs in bear country but it would not be my choice for a survival gun. would you choose your 1187 as your primary survival gun, and do you use a shotgun because you like it or because you are forced to by law in your state?
Click to expand...

I agree, and I like your choice of a 357 lever and revolver lots of versatility there with 38 spc up to full house 357 magnums.

No my 1187 would NOT be my first choice, too heavy, gun and ammo, and too complex, if I blow an O ring I have a heavy bolt action.

I use a shotgun because I enjoy it, I like hunting on the ground and slipping close. I played the precision rifle game for a while and got tired of working up loads, worrying about my scopes, bedding, screw torque, throat erosion and the million other things rifle shooters obsess about. I now grab my gun a pocket full of shells and go. Chris
 
North what changed for you re hunting regs? I've seen some of your old pics and it looked like you were hunting in paradise.
 
The scout rifle is a great concept but in the case of the styer its a rich mans toy. Now the Ruger frontier rifle is another story cost alot less, same concept ect. Also savage made a scout rifle a few years ago I don't know if it is still in production or not. It also was alot cheaper and was said to shoot very well.
 
runningboar said:
I agree, and I like your choice of a 357 lever and revolver lots of versatility there with 38 spc up to full house 357 magnums.

No my 1187 would NOT be my first choice, too heavy, gun and ammo, and too complex, if I blow an O ring I have a heavy bolt action.

I use a shotgun because I enjoy it, I like hunting on the ground and slipping close. I played the precision rifle game for a while and got tired of working up loads, worrying about my scopes, bedding, screw torque, throat erosion and the million other things rifle shooters obsess about. I now grab my gun a pocket full of shells and go. Chris
Click to expand...

Thats a fair and honest answer and one that can't be argued with.
Good hunting. Kirby
 
Fellers I just don't see a centerfire rifle as a first choice in anything larger than a .223. Even if you are in an area that is over ran with large game depending on the weather most of your meat is going to spoil before you can use it. I have no experience but from what I have read most indiginous peoples, such as the inuit, prefer the small bores. 22 hornet, .222, .223 etc, much less powder and lead, lighter, and will work in a pinch for large and small game. Chris
 
yea well what if you happen to anger a polar bear riding grizzly bear? and then have jack bauer being he sissy he is comming after you then what do you use ?



CHUCK NORRIS!!!
 
Why not a Mosin-Nagant model 38 or 44 carbine? Cheap & powerful. the ammo is cheap in bulk tins and keeps forever. Good for SD and hunting.
 
FULMTALJKT said:
Granted up close say within 7 yard you have a nice tight patern and slug like performance and that might stop a bear if you get a good hit but do you really want to be that close to an angry bear and a single round of buck shot to stop it.
Click to expand...

Yup, I would feel fine knowing that I had a load of the heaviest 12 gauge buckshot at close range if all I had was a 12 gauge. We all have our own comfort level and personal experiences to make these judgements and you made several very good points. However, I have patterned these loads years ago and know their limitations also. Not that a shotgun would be my firearm of choice, although it definately is a useful one. With that said, I would still choose as I said before, an over,under Savage 24 or Stevens with a .22 barrel on top and a 30 30 on the bottom. You can shoot birds, rabbits whatever and have a deer, bear,Caribou even moose, rifle on bottom. More moose and black bear have been killed in Canada with the 3030 Win and .303 British over the years, than by any other caliber, particularly by the Aboriginals (Indians). And these are far from ideal choices also, but these animals are being hit at close range. Same scenario here. I would not be banging off unless the bear was close, as in too close for my comfort. Im not talking about sniping at 300 yards here. Iron sight rifles and shotguns are inherently short range firearms. Atleast if I dont want to waste ammunition and wound animals.
 
Personally I have the same problem with large caliber rifles as I have with shotguns... they are too heavy, and at best awkward. When backpacking (not hunting) I personally have other uses for those 7+ pounds that only get heavier at each step.
Note; I do not frequent griz or polar bear (or Kodiak) country. I will readily admit the need for heavy firepower in these areas.
In all cases, like a survival knife, a survival firearm is the one that you have with you. Not the one in the truck, or back in camp. In my opinion this means it must be light and easy to carry (otherwise it will not be near to hand while taking a dump over behind those bushes).

Defense against bears in the lower 48 can, mostly, be done by simply not blindly walking down the trail, bear spray has been found to be an adequate backup in most cases. Defense against big cats? Most people will never know that they are around let alone have a chance to shoot them if attacked.
2 legged varmints; this is the only reason that I, sometimes, carry in the woods and the reason for my caliber of choice. I realize, however, that others may be more paranoid than I, But I have to laugh when I envision hikers lugging Rem 870s or .308 rifles (or long barreld .44 hand howitzers) along over most of the United States when not hunting (just in case they are forced into a survival scenario).
Enjoy!
 
runningboar said:
Fellers I just don't see a centerfire rifle as a first choice in anything larger than a .223. Even if you are in an area that is over ran with large game depending on the weather most of your meat is going to spoil before you can use it. I have no experience but from what I have read most indiginous peoples, such as the inuit, prefer the small bores. 22 hornet, .222, .223 etc, much less powder and lead, lighter, and will work in a pinch for large and small game. Chris
Click to expand...




Its true, up here .223 is a common caliber. Caribou are considered pretty fragile, and not too hard to get that close to.
A lot of the white hunters prefer the .303 or even larger.
 
I used the Steyr as a prototypical example of the breed, understanding that it's well outside the price range of most folks who are barely considering a rifle at all. It's hardly a precision rifle, though. Something around 2 MOA and below is commonly reported. The point of the rifle is to make it easy to be accurate with, not that it have some magical intrinsic accuracy. If the caliber isn't your flavor, there's a .223 type as well.

The concepts behind the rifle are what's worth considering, and there are several more economical examples to be found or made. Savage made a fair scout rifle for around $300-$350, now ordered through their custom shop. Ruger recently produced one, as has been stated, though it lacks iron sights. I know several custom shops producing good rifles in the same price ranges.

As far as the notion that 'anyone who backpacks with a longarm is playing Rambo', there is little to say. The rifle gives you an excellent tool at your disposal to solve a variety of potentially life-altering problems. If having more and better options as it relates to your safety is 'laughable', what is there to discuss? You've no way to predict what circumstances will arise when you are truly alone on a treck. It's the same reason I carry a very complete medical kit. It's your one and only life, do as you will.
 
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