Survival Firearms - The Perfect Pair?

j williams said:
Man, those alaskans are Hand cannons!!!!! I bet they are sweet shooters!
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With full blown Corbon loads, I wouldnt call it "sweet" to shoot but it is very effective..;) If you had a bear all up yer ass I doubt you would notice the recoil though..:D With mild loads its much more pleasurable. It is a great compact powerhouse to hang on your belt, and its built like a tank..:thumbup:
 
Yeah they look bombproof.... Man with the short barrel lengths, the muzzle flash would probably light em on fire just before they turned into pink mist! Flat badass!
 
I know I do this a lot- but why focus heavily on a 12ga? I have several reasons for preferring a 20, even a .410- though I am leaning a bit away from the .410 these days.

The .410 is a perfectly usable cartridge (admittedly I don't live in the Great White North at this time.) and I know from experience that I can fill a pot with it. All stopping power arguments aside, I'm pretty comfortable with it for self defense against anything short of big bear, too. BUT, the 20 seems more versatile, and often cheaper to shoot.

The 20 guage over the 12? Sure! I have family, and the core group for survival purposes includes 2 women under 110 pounds with short reach, one male and one female adult who are ... they can shoot a bit, and I'd trust at least the one to take small game or do self defense, but they will all be much more comfortable with a 20. There's also a 15 year old girl, who has very little experience but knows what to do if she needs to pick one up and point it at someone. (I'm discounting the smaller children)

The 20 works, it will take anything I'd expect to shoot, and with slugs I'd even feel good about local predator critters. We don't really have polar bears down here. Not that any bear without a mental disorder is going to be anywhere near a group of 9.

And, fact is, with a group like this in size, a bugout scenario includes at least 2 .22 revolvers, one mid sized auto, a 22 rifle, .308 bolt, 20 and .410 shotguns, and a .50 smokepole if we want to spare the weight.

But, back on topic, for personal carry, this idea of a small caliber handgun and a larger caliber longar are certainly growing on me.
 
I saw that history special on Castners Cutthroats, and was very impressed with how these men survived, living off the land sometimes within ear shot of Japanese troops.

Each one of the cutthroats were handpicked for thier background in hunting, and wilderness experiance. They used a lot of native Eskimo personel for the scouting missons, and hunting for food to keep them going. Apparently, the choice of the .22 was made by the Inuits, as it was a choice they made in civilian life. The thinking was, that there was more small game around than large, and if they ran into large, then the M1 was there.

On a very similar note, some years back I saw a National Geogrphic special on the Inuits. There was this big blond guy who used to do the geographic specials, Boyd Mattson if I recall right. On this one special, he was traveling across country with some of them, and they were getting a little low on rations. The weather was terrible, the food for the dogs pulling the sleds was low. One of them goes hunting and see's a seal n the ice near a hole. He tries to take a shot with the bolt action rifle he has, click. Tries again, click. Seal starting to look nervious. The Eskimo guy reaches back and his buddy hands him a small looking rifle, and a couple little pops sound off. The seal flops around just a little bit, then lays still. Dead as a doornail.

Inuit guy looks at Boyd, holds up a frigging Remington nylon 66 and says, "Good rifle, always works in the cold."

I guess if a .22 rifle is good enough for the real Inuit guys, I'll take one and lots of ammo. If I have a handgun along, I'd make it a Ruger redhawk just in case some bear thinks I'm gonna taste like chicken.

The .22 must be one of the most underrated guns around. Even that young guy who tried to go it alone in Alaska downed a moose with one.
 
Old Ruger Single Six, and Remington 870 12 ga. I`ll cheat and toss in my Kimber .45, I shoot it very well.

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koyote said:
I know I do this a lot- but why focus heavily on a 12ga? I have several reasons for preferring a 20, even a .410- though I am leaning a bit away from the .410 these days.
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Great question koyote :thumbup:.

I went with 12 for several reasons.

1 - availability of ammo and types or rounds available. You'd be hard pressed to find a reduced recoil 00 buck for a 20, 28, or 410 (although they would all be somewhat reduced compared to a 12 with the same type round). The variety of different rounds for 12ga is incredible.

2 - Recoil of 20 over 12 isn't enough to sway me. Depending on the gun/slug/weight/fit/phase of the moon it may be a non-issue. (I know this is a pretty broad statement but my 20 with a youth stock kicks more than my 12 because of poor fit)

3- Ammo cost. 12 is still the cheapest. Especially compared to 28 or .410. Not only that, if you need to barter for ammo down the road, what are you more likely to find your neighbors to have? Probably not 16 or 28 at all.

4 - More shot = better odds of bringing down game. One of the reasons I think .410's can be discouraging to kids and new shooters but thats getting off topic. (again, broad statement. - this will depend on the shooter/patern/size of shot/choke/etc.) I'm basing this on 12 Vs. .410 w/similar size shot and a similar size patern at the same distance.

5 - Its what I currently use. Remember, skills over equipment. My 12 gauge gets more use than my 20. I know its dependable, and I know what it can do. I'm comfortable using it and I practice with it.

Chris
 
Rupestris said:
Great question koyote :thumbup:.

I went with 12 for several reasons.

1 - availability of ammo and types or rounds available. You'd be hard pressed to find a reduced recoil 00 buck for a 20, 28, or 410 (although they would all be somewhat reduced compared to a 12 with the same type round). The variety of different rounds for 12ga is incredible.

2 - Recoil of 20 over 12 isn't enough to sway me. Depending on the gun/slug/weight/fit/phase of the moon it may be a non-issue. (I know this is a pretty broad statement but my 20 with a youth stock kicks more than my 12 because of poor fit)

3- Ammo cost. 12 is still the cheapest. Especially compared to 28 or .410. Not only that, if you need to barter for ammo down the road, what are you more likely to find your neighbors to have? Probably not 16 or 28 at all.

4 - More shot = better odds of bringing down game. One of the reasons I think .410's can be discouraging to kids and new shooters but thats getting off topic. (again, broad statement. - this will depend on the shooter/patern/size of shot/choke/etc.) I'm basing this on 12 Vs. .410 w/similar size shot and a similar size patern at the same distance.

5 - Its what I currently use. Remember, skills over equipment. My 12 gauge gets more use than my 20. I know its dependable, and I know what it can do. I'm comfortable using it and I practice with it.

Chris
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All good points, but - I did mention 20, over the 16 and 28 because of the more common use :)

I'll grant that practice, fit, and gun choice make a huge difference, but the selection for a 20 is pretty broad, and it is lighter ammo to carry. Often a lighter gun, too.

I'm also partial to single shot interchaneable choke guns, and the sheer number of really good used 20s is a factor.

I also probably have a bit of a bias- I always hunted growing up with a .410 and my main experience with a 12 until I was near 30 years old was as a military weapon (my favorite one to carry, as it happens)

I am ambivalent about the .410 being a poor choice for starting with- I shot with nothing but an H&R .410 for years doing dove and quail hunting and by age 15 I could bag my limit more reliably and faster than my step father and his safari buddies with their 870s and 1100s. I was the only bunny hunter in the group, but did well with that, too. Even varminted a coyote one time!
 
I've gotta find an M6.

If anyone knows where to find one that isn't overpriced, let me know. I have trouble finding anything under 500 bucks that is in good shape.
 
msiley said:
Anyhow, what was interesting was that these soldiers used a .22 pistol for hunting small game along with their combat rifle (I am assuming a M1 Garand but it wasn't stated).
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Did you know that the most common rifle of WWII was.....the 1917 "Enfield"? M1's were in short supply, and were almost non-existent in reserve and guard units. Apparently, we had tooled up to make the 1917 in 303 for the Brits and continued making them for our own troops. They were much more quickly and cheaply manufactured, so they outnumbered both the Springfield and the M1.

I think that unit was Alaskan National Guard so odds were that they had a bolt action rather than an M1.
 
Standard issue for Castner's Cutthroats was a Trapper Nelson pack, hunting knife, .22 caliber target pistol and a sniper rifle, instead of the standard issue Springfield rifle, or M1 Garand. However, when it came to firearms, personal preferences was the deciding factor. Al Brattain, a crack shot, preferred the M1 Garand because its reduced recoil didn't spoil his aim. Trapper Nelson packs held all their supplies for their long mountainous treks. They lived off the land, which allowed them to stay light, unlike most military units of the time. To move from island to island, the men used canoes, from which they fished for salmon. The salmon was dried and stored for the winter, furthering the unit's ability to stay out in the field.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castner's_Cutthroats
 
Depending on situation one of the following sets:

Kimber 84M 308 w/ heavy duty rings and scope(super light) + Ruger Mark II 22lr.

or

Benelli M2 18 1/2" barrel with rifle sights + Glock 17
 
Hmm...for just plain wilderness survival, I think it would have to be my Puma 92 in .357, plus either a GP100, or maybe single six.
 
Depends on where I am, really. Where I live now, I hike, hunt, camp, etc. less than 20 miles from the southern U.S. border. Due to constant criminal activities here, I never hike with less than a .38 revolver (low profile areas), and usually, a full sized 9mm added to it. If I lived in an area where I was less concerned that the pistol would be needed for anti-personnel action, I would be happy to pack my .22 Ruger MkII as a fun little trail gun/small game gun.

Long gun, I like the 20 guage or the AR15 carbine. For a survival thing, either would do, really. Having a gun and knowing how to use it well are much more important than what exactly you are carrying.
 
Probably my Sako .22 rifle and Tikka .223. I think given the right shot and ammo, the .223 can do about anything I need it to do and it and its ammo are reasonably light.
 
These scenarios make my brain hurt. Mostly because there are so many good combos.
I do like this situation because you are allowed a long gun and a sidearm.

Just a few thoughts, a .30 cal weapon can be made to take small game using various loadings. I can load a 30.06 with a 110 grain bullet and slow it down enough that it doesn't vaporize a squirrel, but can speed it up to take down a deer. So, loads can matter. If I am lost in the wilderness, it's doubtful I would be humping an M1 Garand, too bulky, so is the ammo. perhaps in Grizzly or Polar bear country, yes, you WOULD catch me carrying a big caliber.
But in most cases, If I were lost in the woods, I would probably have a .22lr bolt gun.
Accurate enough to keep you well fed, and the ammo carrying is not a burden.

Then the sidearm would most likely be a .45 1911. For this wilderness-lost situation 9mm would probably be fine, except for Grizzly bear country, but I don't own a 9mm.

If it were SHTF scenario with bad-guy 2-leggers wandering around, then I'd go for an AR15 which gives ability to carry enough defensive/offensive ammo, without breaking your backside.

I love 30 cals, wonderful tools, but they are big, heavy and so is their ammo.
i think I'd be fooling myself that i would be humping one anywhere except Big bear country.
 
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