Survival knives-- what is the point? (no pun intended)

S

Stiletto Raggio

Joined
Jan 29, 2000
Messages
546
I have noticed over my fairly recent use of this site that there is a great deal of ballyhoo-ing and such about survival knives. Now, I understand that knives are excellent wilderness tools, but there are some things that they just shouldn't (IMO) or can't do.

Two popular styles are the Busse and Trailmaster bowies, and for the life of me I cannot see why you would want to carry one of these knives in a potential survival situation. They are both very thick and sturdy, presumably to be used for chopping. WHY?

A hood hand axe or tomahawk will easily out chop a bowie. In fact, a $20 hatchet will outperform a $200 bowie as far as chopping is concerned. A hatchet or hawk can also make an effective hammer, log-splitter, fire starter and a decent digging tool. You can also choke up on a tomahawk for precision chopping ad well as pretty fine cutting (at least as good as a bowie). A good plains indian type tomahawk wiegh little if any more than one of those enormous bowies.

In combination with a SAK or whatever you would usually carry to complement the survival knife, the tomahawk would make an excellent and affordable survival tool.

I like bowies just as much as the next guy, but I gotta call em like I see em.

 
Whew. I won't answer this one as I am heading for lala land but you may also want to ask the same question in our Wilderness & Survival Skills forum.

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TO SURVIVE DUH
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Hi SR...

I have to disagree with you on a few points....

Actually hatchets are fairly limited in their use in the wilderness....

I would much rather have a TOPS Anaconda or a Busse BM any day over a hatchet.

A Big blade has many different uses other than chopping....

For a more detailed answer on this I would direct you over to Ron Hood on the Wilderness forum....

From what I know of Ron,, he Very rarely uses a hatchet in the bush,,and on all 11 videos I have of his,, I've never even seen one...

I'm sure he'll give you a 101 uses for a chopper,,far more than I can spout off anyway...

Besides,, once you've had a quality big blade in your hands,, the hachet will rust....

ttyle Eric....

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Eric E. Noeldechen
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As I've mentioned before, my most tactical situation in current days is less than life threatening. But....

It seems to me that whatever blade (axe, hatchet, knife, sword) you become accustomed to would become your most valuable tool in a survival situation. One person might be able to achieve all necessary tasks with a well equipped SAK, where another might use a bowie. Still another an axe. It all comes down to each person choosing their own tool, and learning to use that tool to its fullest extent.

IMHO
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Brandon

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"You should never never doubt what nobody is sure about..."
 
Normark,

I am not disagreeing with you, but would you please provide some examples?

There are numerous examples of axes and axettes aka hatchets that did all that a survivor ever needed.

Horace Kephardt
George Washington 'Nessmuk' Sears
Simon Kenton

I spoke to Ron Hood, and he told me that he carries an axe in his kit.

USAF Survival Instructors are issued and carry axes.

Now, one may be more accustomed to using a long blade, but that does not make it the end all of outdoor cutting tools.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
I think you make some excellent points! Let's be honest and admit we love big knives!!! See that didn't hurt!!! I have a Trailmaster, but you can be sure that it won't be on my belt when I walk around my homestead in Alaska! It's just too heavy!! For most "survival" use I think an issue machette, a file, and a decent pocket knife would be vastly superior to and large knife!
Ok, let me have it!!!
Scott
 
I don't find that a hatchet (except maybe the uluchet) out chops my big knives.And the only thing a machete does better is chop small diameter vegetation.A good big knife does all the big jobs well plus a lot of the small jobs after you get used to it and weighs less and is easier to carry than a hatchet (except the uluchet) to boot.
However when I don't want the various hassels of carrying a big knife or axe or whatever,I carry my uluchet and a smaller (4",5" or 7") blade and can do most of the things I can do with my big stuff.
 
Hey Marion...

Well now that I've stuck my foot in my mouth,,I'd better come up with something,,although I'm drawing a blank right now...
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Ok for one a big blade you can use easier for
Tillering,,(drawknife).

Secondly for chopping you have far greater control with a big blade over a hachet.

Easier to sharpen,because of blade thickness...


Geez I don't know..All I know is that I'm extremely comfortable with my 14" chopper. When in the bush it goes where I go and I use for everything from building structures to hot dog sticks..
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Actually I have more of a problem controlling a hatchet than a 14" blade.Probably from inexperience.

When used properly as Ron has showed me a big knife can be used to clean fingernails if careful..
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I've never seen Ron use a hatchet,,so I didn't even know he carried one,thats where I drew my conclusion from..

ttyle Eric...

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
My concept of a survival knife goes back to pilot survival kits that I think were invented during WWII. The idea was to have a minimum number of tools that would help you survive if you were literally "dropped from the sky in the middle of the wilderness". Since this doesn't match most of our lives there is much confusion.

When we go into the wilderness it is usually part of a camping experience and we can pick a whole variety of tools for the job. We are also not confined to the economy model tools that the government usually buys. The government created things like the moderate-sized pilots survival knife (with small whet stone) and the folding survival machete. They also made an over-sized folder with knife and hacksaw blade.

During the Vietnam war the hollow-handled survival knife with small kit inside became popular. These knives got up to the size where they could do some chopping. By now we tend to think that a universal knife is something to have around in the field. Some think that you are better off with two tools, a chopper and a utility blade. The chopper might be a hatchet. You're starting to get loaded down if you always carry these things on your person.

When I go camping I bring along a chopper and a utility knife and an SAK. In my car I tend to keep a hatchet. I don't have an airplane. I don't need a universal knife.

 
--After thought to my last post:

I think that the reason the military favored a light folding machete (without a point) to a hatchet has to do with cutting brush. Surviving in enemy territory involves camoflage. You often want to hide yourself and your belonging under a mass of brush or long grass. You can't chop brush quickly with a short knife or hatchet. For most of us the light machete advantage would be for improvising shelter. You could make yourself a pack rat nest out of brush, small branches, and long grasses quicker with a machete than anything else. It would also be handy for making a hunter's blind.


[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 02-09-2000).]
 
Get ready, this meanders a little:

If you happen to be in an unexpected emergency survival situation, such as a plane crash, etc., knowing how to use an axe really well will be good food for thought and introspection, but you're not likely to have one in that instance. Survival thinking is "being prepared for the unexpected, with no supplies," not going camping. If camping, heck, bring all your goodies and enjoy! However, in a plane crash, etc., most likely you'll only have a small folder or SAK (if you are smart and carry something like this at all times). Take the SAK Rucksack for one: locking blade, saw, and awl. Cutting, whittling, notching, sawing down saplings, drilling holes...multi use. In other words, the knife you have on ya. So, learning the widest possible number of uses of a small knife (especially a mulituse knife that you can carry almost anywhere easily), as it relates to your survival priorities, might be a good first effort when learning about use of tools in the woods. Then you can learn the wide variety of uses for a big blade (drawknife, whittler, bushwhacker, log and wood splitter). The uses, both finer and rougher, of a large knife are greater than an axe, IMHO, for short term survival, since an axe is less likely to be available. Also, you'll probably be able to do things with the knife that you can't do as easily with the axe. Like skin small animals etc. Even a big bowie will make it easier than an axe.

Again, it's all about what you'll most likely have on ya. I always go back to the small multiuse or single blade when thinking of what I'd use and how I'd use it in survival. A big blade is lovely, and is icing on the cake. I bring one every chance I get. For longer term outdoor living, an axe is a godsend. But an axe is not necessary as a sruvival tool for an interim period, and neither is a big knife. They just ease the pain.
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With a SAK or small folder, you can fashion an axe from many natural materials if you are clever, knowledgeable, and can improvise. In fact, you can make an axe WITHOUT a knife! So why bring an axe with ya? LOL. However, it's way harder to fashion an effective machete that will clear brush (the importance of clearing brush was mentioned above if you are in brushy areas) -- and brush clearing is brutal and tiring work for your whole body in remote areas even when you DO have a good machete. And you may need to travel or build emergency shelter. So bringing a big knife as opposed to an axe may be better.

I feel the best thing one can do is learn how to survive with as little "knife" as possible. Then learn how to survive with no knife.(SACRILEGE ON BLADEFORUMS!!!
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) Knowledge is the key, tools will make it easier, but learn how without them.

Yer noggin will always be the keenest, sharpest survival tool you have, if you've trained it. Sharpen THAT tool, and you're ready for anything. I personally disagree with the "use whatever you're comfortable with" thinking, because comfort zones can too often lead to ruts in many cases. And ya can't afford to be in a rut when the sh*t hits the fan. Ron Hood is always pushing the edge of the survival envelope in terms of knowledge AND tools, and after many many years of already being an expert, still feels he is learning new things every day. That is the attitude of a survivor, and a winner, in any walk of life.

God, I hope this adds to the discussion -- I'm rambling here a bit...LOL -- what was the question again???
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Best,

Brian.
 
I generally agree with what Brian just said. My actual "survival" gear is what I always carry with me--things that I get away with bringing onto an airplane. This is an SAK with locking 3.25" blade (I use the Adventurer model without the Rucksack's saw, but has the tools I routinely use), and a butane lighter. Given those things I expect to survive.
 
I guess it comes down to how much gear can you carry. When I canoe I always carry several knives, a saw, and a cruiser's axe.
When I fell like humping the bushes I will carry a machete and generally two other knives. I try to carry as little as possible for foot travel. The large knife or machete allows me to do more than a hatchet or hawk.
I do like hawks and have a nice selection of them. The weight to use ratio just does not put them is the same class as a large knife.

It works for me.
Cheers,

ts

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Guns are for show. Knifes are for Pros.
 
I don't know about a big knife out chopping a good hatchet.Good being the key word there. Alot of hatchets anymore suck big time. They come with a thick edge that would be good for splitting kindling and nothing else. I've got a hatchet that has a fairly flat head on it that will chop like crazy. for about 1" behind the cutting edge it probably isn't much thicker than your bowie you like so well(I like bowies too ). Then it tapers out for the handle, but not a ton.The cutting edge is about 3.5 inches long and it will take a really sharp edge. Given the fact that its weight is at the end giving more power to your swing, it has about the same edge thickness,and it takes a good edge, I'd say it has to chop at least as good as your bowie. And it can be used as a hammer, prybar,fire starter and all kinds of other stuff too. I'd take it and a 4-5" fixed blade anyday.

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