Survival training as therapy?

Well, My POV comes from having worked with kids for a couple of years. These kids were wards of the state (meaning that their parents were found to be unfit guardians and the state placed them in the care of foster families and residential facilities.) Most of the kids that I worked with - 99.9% of them, acted out and misbehaved as a result of the lack of positive parental influence. This directly impacted on their sense of self worth and they behaved as though they had no real value. Now I will stop talking like one of the pod people *L*.

Teaching kids survival can only boost their sense of self worth. I enjoyed it as a Boy Scout (and was fortunate to have the kind of leaders that would and could teach that sort of thing.) I know that in the news there have been documented cases of some survival programs being irresponsible and their negligence resulted in the deaths of several kids entrusted to their care. Still, getting kids involved in NOLS or Outward Bound and scouting and things like that... I can't find a down side to it.

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When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

 
By the way, I definitely feel that when they catch those kids who assaulted the counselors, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

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When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

 
I figure that if I was the one who had been assaulted, I'd hunt those little bastards down and cap 'em.

Now on to reality.

I proposed a program at my University, CSUN, called SOS. I managed to get a FIPSE (Fund for the Improvement of Post Secondary Education) grant. The idea was that in the California University system about 10% of the students are on academic probation at any time and of these about 94% will be ultimately disqualified for the University. This is at enourmous cost to both the taxpayer and the student. I proposed to use Survival training and focus training to bring them back to production. In four sememsters I ran over 600 academic probation students through the program. At the end of the program we tracked the students. Only 8% of my students were disqualified. We almost turned the numbers around.

Survival training helps in a lot of areas but you must maintain control and set rigorous standards within the experience. When my grant money ran out the program died. It seems that there is little interest in academia for any program that improves student performance if it outside of some very narrowly defined progammatic pedagological preconceptions.

I said "bite me" to the system and retired.

ROn

 
HEY RON: They wouldn't even consider it as a Physical Education credit?!?!?
redface.gif
WOW! Considering that I took Advanced Hunter Ed. and canoeing as two of my P.E. credits I would think a UNIVERSITY system would try to keep something like your program going. The cost couldn't have been too much for a program like that.

Even compare the cost of running a canoe course. Our campus had 12 17' aluminum canoes and two trailers for hauling them. They also had to have life jackets for up to 30 students (give or take) and at least two paddles per canoe. Now consider the course. Two days in the classroom, two days in the POOL and the rest was in a small lake or a river, each was at least 30 miles from the campus!! Hence, we had to travel to and from each with university vans.

On top of the inventory they used to go up to the headwaters in Minn. or into Canada on TWO WEEK trips for the class!! Talk about expenses...

I don't understand these Universities not keeping good courses that could result in somebody saving a life on top of the good it does just to have experienced it!

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Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com


 
Somehow, Doc... I don't see you getting caught napping by a group of teenaged punks.

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When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

 
We provide teen therapy in both a survival and ROPES format (remember...I explained a ropes program earlier). In conjunction with using our survival instructor staff, my wife a psychotherapist, the undersherrif for our county (plain clothes), and a PhD Psychologist on our staff. We are working on a grant right now for our county. These programs are so hard to do becouse there is no funding for them and I allready do about 10K in charity a year. We have to pay the bills.

We'd like to do these from 14 (mild problems) to 45 days for your rougher kids.

the problem I see with a lot of these programs is they are ran by survival instructors and don't provide the therapist to help facilitate change.

Kinda like a survival school ran by a yahoo (someone who has done something and now thinks they can teach it) instead of a yahoo that is well versed in how to pass that knowledge on (but we don't want to go there again:>)).

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Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
To get a good sense of a wilderness program for problem kids, you might want to take a look at Gary Ferguson, Shouting at the Sky: Troubled Teens and the Promise of the Wild (New York NY: St. Martin's Press, 1999), ISBN 0-312-20008-0; you can check out some reviews at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312200080/qid=944609910/sr=1-6/002-2010786-4439032. Ferguson is a naturalist who has written such books as The Yellowstone Wolves: The First Year, and Walking Down the Wild: A Journey Through the Yellowstone Rockies, an account of his 500-mile hike through Yellowstone National Park and surrounding area. I am very interested to hear what reaction other people have to the book.
 
I'll read it but more importantly I'll give a copy to the psychologist (Phd) we use ...he specializes in troubled teens and teen drug and alcohol issues. I'll also have my wife (Psychotherpist) read it. She is a ACSW, MSW, CSW who also has worked extensively with troubled youth and family counseling.

I read the reviews. it got almost as many bad ones as good. Some comparing his trips to that of camping with Shirly McClain (sp). I'm curious what you thought...don't worry I'll still form my own openion. :>)

Thank you for the book referal...I am sure we will get some valuable information out of it. Besides, what do I have to do for the next couple of weeks...other then write on the forum and get fat. :>)


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Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
Greg --

I enjoyed the book. I thought it was very well written, as you would expect. And yeah, I thought it got kind of sappy at times. But then I get sappy myself sometimes over the redemptive power of the wilderness.

The term "redemptive power" all by itself gets a sappiness rating of 12. :) But it's true.
 
Hi walks slowly,

I will check it out.

I understand what you are saying about being in the woods and how it effects you. Although it probably affects us all a little differetly, my experiences are very fulfilling and beyond words. for those who have never felt this pleasure...sorry. If you'd like to....it's waiting for you.

Start by learning to be safe when venturing into mother nature's den. Once these is done you'll be amazed at how the wilderness can create change in your life (this subject is way to complicated to write here but I am sure you catch my drift). The therapeutic power of returning (you don't have to go forever) to nature and leaving the hustle bustle of everyday living cannot be overstated.

I'll never forget how good I felt when I took out a group of troubled teens for a eight day trip (to short but that's what we had to work with). There was this one kid that looked like a beatnick. He was very shy and didn't ever look you in the eyes (I won't go into the therapeutic meaning of this). when I picked him up on the last day, after a 36 hr solo, he looked me right in the eyes and said "Man, I feel like such a stud...that was so cool."

It was probably the first time he had ever done such a challenging thing in his life (self-esteem, confidence, overcoming fear, etc.). It was probalby the first time in a long time he felt good about himself and knew he'd done it all by himself (self-relience). I don't know who had a bigger smile, him or me.

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Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
Hi Plainsman,

I should have clairified one thing. All of my survival programs were fully accredited by WASC and worth two or three units to the student. It was this way for over 18 years.

The problem was more political. My outdoor programs brought in nearly 1/2 of the FTE (Full Time Equivalent.... the money engine that drives schools) for the department. That put way too much money power and attention in my hands. That, and my less than favorable attitude towards lazy academics. They gave classes on some esoteric BS in a warm classroom while I froze my butt off in 10f weather and taught life skills.

The SOS program would have allowed me to run right over the department and perhaps begin a new program without a departmental chair overseeing my activities. That scared them. Rather than survive they chose to fight to close the program. They did and two years later the department disappeared for lack of funding...

There is no end to the idiocy of University politics.

Ron

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Learn Life Extension at:

http://www.survival.com ]
 
I have no doubts of the healing and rejuvenating power of the wilderness. I have experienced it myself. I take my children into the wilderness, and I believe they benefit from it. In the future, I look forward to being able to offer my children some experiences with pros like Greg and Ron if they so desire.

I can understand the therapeutic benefit of putting a troubled youth in a situation where he must rely on himself and his group for survival. However, the more I consider it, the more it seems unethical to take youths who don't want such an experience and force it upon them. This seems a recipe for putting not only the youths but also the people who search for them at risk. The latest CNN article at http://www.cnn.com/1999/US/12/08/runaway.boys.ap/index.html mentions that the RedCliff Ascent program has had 30 runaways this year, but that they catch "most" of them within 24 hours.

The risk of a runaway child in a wilderness area is predictable and avoidable. I feel that any organization that knowingly takes these severe risks on a regular basis must and should be closely questioned and examined. As much as I dislike intrusive government regulations, this could be an area ripe for governmental oversight, if the community of survival instructors cannot police itself.
 
Howard --

>However, the more I consider it, the more it seems unethical to take
>youths who don't want such an experience and force it upon them. This
>seems a recipe for putting not only the youths but also the people who
>search for them at risk.

Your point is well taken. But I think the kids we're talking about here are those who are engaged in some seriously self-destructive behavior - alcohol, drugs, vandalism, shoplifting. If we can assume that less restrictive alternatives have been tried and have failed, what is left to try? For many of these kids, I do not believe that the juvenile justice system is appropriate. That system will turn them either into wolves or sheep -- probably sheep, since these would normally be white kids from the suburbs. (Inner city black kids would most likely have been fed to the juvenile justice system a long time before.)

>As much as I dislike intrusive government regulations, this could be
>an area ripe for governmental oversight, if the community of survival
>instructors cannot police itself.

I agree. But the fact that RedCliff had more than 30 runaways this year should already have been a red flag that something was seriously wrong with the program.

Maybe I'm being naive. I am very interested in hearing what Ron and Greg have to say on this issue.
 
30 runaways out of how many students?

30 students seems like a lot when you consider the alternative they must be weighing to get away from those instructors. When alone and lost without gear in the wilds is preferable to the security of a small group, I wonder about the group dynamics.

I wonder how the kids were being motivated to become part of the team.

You can force them to come along but you need to have some strategy that will help them to buy into the program. I've never been a believer in beating the hell out of a student just so they can find their limits. (I am an advocate of beating the hell out of a student who attempts to touch me or one of my instructors)

We use a system called "transformational leadership" which was pretty much described by James McGregor Burns. It is a mulitstep program that builds confidence and a sense of Nemawaski (Root Binding) which in turn advances the esteem of the individual.

Ron



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Learn Life Extension at:

http://www.survival.com ]
 

There was an interesting article at http://www.sltrib.com/12061999/utah/3734.htm (Salt Lake Tribune). It made it sound as if these boys had been sent by their parents on a "boot camp" type outing. Apparently the two "counselors" with the 8 boys were a 23 year old male and 22 year old female.

This article made it sound to me like the outfit running this program is not using qualified instructors, and is collecting money from parents and sending juveniles out with inexperienced camp counselors. Something doesn't sound right to me about taking 8 juvenile delinquents into the wilderness with only a 23 year old male and 22 year old female. I hate to underestimate people, but somehow I just don't think those counselors could have been in the business long enough to have gained the training and experience needed to deal with this sort of problem group.

Wally
 
deleted.

[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 12-26-2000).]
 
Hi WMerrin,

You comments support what I have been saying. Anyone can get a business license but does that mean they are qualified to sell the product. I also have a hard time believing a 23 and 22 year old have the credentials as both a psychotherapists (masters level or above) and the survival skills necessary to be an instructor and not a yahoo (how'd they find the time to do both by that young of an age). and if they do...they are green and need supervision of someone with years of experience in this field.

BTW, my discussions on this topic relate to wilderness survival and how it can be used in conjunction with psychotherapy to create change within our troubled teens. I am not talking about boot camp therapy.

Best to all

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Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
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