Survival vs Wilderness living vs Apocalypse fantasizers

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For those who may not be familiar with Tunguska...

From NASA Science News in 2008.

June 30, 2008: The year is 1908, and it's just after seven in the morning. A man is sitting on the front porch of a trading post at Vanavara in Siberia. Little does he know, in a few moments, he will be hurled from his chair and the heat will be so intense he will feel as though his shirt is on fire.

That's how the Tunguska event felt 40 miles from ground zero.

Today, June 30, 2008, is the 100th anniversary of that ferocious impact near the Podkamennaya Tunguska River in remote Siberia--and after 100 years, scientists are still talking about it.

"If you want to start a conversation with anyone in the asteroid business all you have to say is Tunguska," says Don Yeomans, manager of the Near-Earth Object Office at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. "It is the only entry of a large meteoroid we have in the modern era with first-hand accounts."

While the impact occurred in '08, the first scientific expedition to the area would have to wait for 19 years. In 1921, Leonid Kulik, the chief curator for the meteorite collection of the St. Petersburg museum led an expedition to Tunguska. But the harsh conditions of the Siberian outback thwarted his team's attempt to reach the area of the blast. In 1927, a new expedition, again lead by Kulik, reached its goal.

"At first, the locals were reluctant to tell Kulik about the event," said Yeomans. "They believed the blast was a visitation by the god Ogdy, who had cursed the area by smashing trees and killing animals."

While testimonials may have at first been difficult to obtain, there was plenty of evidence lying around. Eight hundred square miles of remote forest had been ripped asunder. Eighty million trees were on their sides, lying in a radial pattern.

"Those trees acted as markers, pointing directly away from the blast's epicenter," said Yeomans. "Later, when the team arrived at ground zero, they found the trees there standing upright – but their limbs and bark had been stripped away. They looked like a forest of telephone poles."
Such debranching requires fast moving shock waves that break off a tree's branches before the branches can transfer the impact momentum to the tree's stem. Thirty seven years after the Tunguska blast, branchless trees would be found at the site of another massive explosion – Hiroshima, Japan.

Kulik's expeditions (he traveled to Tunguska on three separate occasions) did finally get some of the locals to talk. One was the man based at the Vanara trading post who witnessed the heat blast as he was launched from his chair. His account:

Suddenly in the north sky… the sky was split in two, and high above the forest the whole northern part of the sky appeared covered with fire… At that moment there was a bang in the sky and a mighty crash… The crash was followed by a noise like stones falling from the sky, or of guns firing. The earth trembled.

The massive explosion packed a wallop. The resulting seismic shockwave registered with sensitive barometers as far away as England. Dense clouds formed over the region at high altitudes which reflected sunlight from beyond the horizon. Night skies glowed, and reports came in that people who lived as far away as Asia could read newspapers outdoors as late as midnight. Locally, hundreds of reindeer, the livelihood of local herders, were killed, but there was no direct evidence that any person perished in the blast.

"A century later some still debate the cause and come up with different scenarios that could have caused the explosion," said Yeomans. "But the generally agreed upon theory is that on the morning of June 30, 1908, a large space rock, about 120 feet across, entered the atmosphere of Siberia and then detonated in the sky."

It is estimated the asteroid entered Earth's atmosphere traveling at a speed of about 33,500 miles per hour. During its quick plunge, the 220-million-pound space rock heated the air surrounding it to 44,500 degrees Fahrenheit. At 7:17 a.m. (local Siberia time), at a height of about 28,000 feet, the combination of pressure and heat caused the asteroid to fragment and annihilate itself, producing a fireball and releasing energy equivalent to about 185 Hiroshima bombs.

"That is why there is no impact crater," said Yeomans. "The great majority of the asteroid is consumed in the explosion."

Yeomans and his colleagues at JPL's Near-Earth Object Office are tasked with plotting the orbits of present-day comets and asteroids that cross Earth's path, and could be potentially hazardous to our planet. Yeomans estimates that, on average, a Tunguska-sized asteroid will enter Earth's atmosphere once every 300 years.

"From a scientific point of view, I think about Tunguska all the time," he admits. Putting it all in perspective, however, "the thought of another Tunguska does not keep me up at night."


So we probably have another 200 years before we have to worry about it.
 
People who really want to prep should go live with a homeless person. The homeless are the best prepared.

Dude have you EVER dealt with a homeless person before aside from looking at the wannabe-homeless people standing on freeway off ramps with a sign? I seriously think 90% of the people out there have this misconception of homeless people.
 
I have a very good conception of the homeless. The vast majority have mental problems, have health problems, have addiction problems, legal problems, and cause me and my business one helluva lot of trouble.
I am convinced that most are homeless due to a conscious life style choice. They are NOT a good role model for survival.
 
Okay, so let me see if I'm following along here:

Wilderness Living and Survival skills versus a Bruce Willis movie.

Homeless people are survival experts and would be a great choice to imitate when the prophecy according to "The Book of Eli" comes true.

Human civilization might not last forever.


I think maybe I took a wrong turn at Albuquerque...
 
Survival-- I think a short term situation is much more about being mentally prepared than anything else. Having the right gear would help, but humans improvised for centuries and managed to make do just fine.

Wilderness Living-- Having some basic stuff would definitely help out. Knowledge, again, is key. Just a little studying on wild edibles, etc, could make all the difference. As for dying in some stupid way, there are plenty of ways to do that in the city too.

The way I see it, if the Apocalypse actually ever happens, it's either going to be a total nuclear destruction thing or a giant asteriod hitting the planet. Not much that I can do about it either way, so I'd rather spend my time LIVING a good life now instead of planning/hoarding/worrying about something that may never happen.


:D:D:D


I really like this post :)

Not too worried about the asteroid , despite my avatar.
Actually I don't worry too much about anything. Worry leads to stress ,stress leads to erratic thinking , errratic thinking leads to mistakes , mistakes lead to injury or death.

I like how the OP divided people into 3 groups. Different skill sets also, even though a lot of things overlap. Survival in the end is still survival. The basic needs are still there and always need to be aquired. The big difference is that people with poor survival skills want those basic needs handed to them on a silver platter or by pushing a button instead of being self-sufficient.
 
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I would bet there are ppl living in Haiti's tent cities wishing they would have been "apocalyptic preppers", or northern Japan, or Thialand a few tears ago, US gulf coast in '05... Just because someone has enough foresite to set up a year or two of food does not make one some insane mall ninja. The Mormons do it as do the Amish. The worse thing I could think of if my family survived some major disaster is being in a school gym somewhere with 500 other refugees living under FEMA rules waiting for permission to leave.

I have several months worth of supplies, but also have livestock on the hoof. But then most rural folks don't think in the same terms city ppl do, you know it is pretty darn inconvienient to have to run to the store for a bottle of ketchup when it is a 40 mile round trip.
 
Not always, but they usually are.

Certainly not true, shortly before I left home my dad was sitting on I think two years worth of food, in rotation and he is by far not a mall ninja, no massive arsenal, no secret underground bunker... sane and had the money to make sure there was a food cache.

Every one else I've met that did anything similar sees it as insurance, a bad day could see stocks go to nil, get injured or laid off.... what food do you buy with no money... no stocks to cash in, gold tanked... worst case scenario aside from the food being stolen... you're only left with food.

If you have a savings account, an IRA, a 401k, stocks, bonds and precious metals you too are a mall ninja... especially if you have a gun or more than one knife... God forbid a sword or anything with black coating... then you MUST be a mall ninja. :barf:

Please add something useful to this thread.
 
Certainly not true, shortly before I left home my dad was sitting on I think two years worth of food, in rotation and he is by far not a mall ninja, no massive arsenal, no secret underground bunker... sane and had the money to make sure there was a food cache.

Every one else I've met that did anything similar sees it as insurance, a bad day could see stocks go to nil, get injured or laid off.... what food do you buy with no money... no stocks to cash in, gold tanked... worst case scenario aside from the food being stolen... you're only left with food.

If you have a savings account, an IRA, a 401k, stocks, bonds and precious metals you too are a mall ninja... especially if you have a gun or more than one knife... God forbid a sword or anything with black coating... then you MUST be a mall ninja. :barf:

Please add something useful to this thread.

By what you described your dad does not fit the description of a mall ninja. A mall ninja is a person who buys "tactical clothing", has a tact vest and/or tacticool drop down leg holsters, loves firearms, hates cops, thinks the government is an evil entity that can get overturned on a whim, and fantasizes everyday that when SHTF they can wear all that stuff to "protect their family".

IMO a lot of the HD/CCW guys are in the realm of mall ninjaness. Constantly having these made up fantasies in their head that their house is going to get broken into in the middle of the night by masked men toting AK47's and they are going to grab the guns on their bedside to go on a shootout with them. Either that or they CCW 2 guns, wear 5.11 shirts/hats and always have their "back against the walls" and "keep their heads on a swivel" in case a robbery happens and they'll be the one to get into a shootout and save the day.

It's like seriously?? Most cops go through their WHOLE ENTIRE careers without having to shoot anybody, and they are exposed to situations where they have a very high potential for deadly force to be used. I don't know why your average joe feels the need to be that paranoid. Only explanation I have is mall ninja syndrome.
 
*SNIP* Only explanation I have is mall ninja syndrome.

Again I'll go with the guys I know, the only gear that really matters is gun and holster, before open carry, clothing was something that you had to have to conceal with more ease.

Being prepared is a learned habit, walk the street in a third world country all by yourself at night and away from the tourist areas. Wait, don't do that, be prepared go during the day, go in a group and if you leave the tourist area, you still better keep your situational awareness.

I'm not bragging, but I've been there done that and managed to not get anything worse than a hangover.

Cops are generally exposed to the crap that happens after a crime, they're a cleanup crew that also gets tasked with bouncing. So let's face some facts, unless you EDC a cop whose only job is keeping you safe... yes, you had better be prepared with your handgun.

Why do I EDC a knife... because a restaurant is more than 5 minutes away and the server is on a smoke break but I need a steak NOW!

Why do I pack rain gear and check the weather channel? Because I don't have a meteorologist walking next to me with his doppler radar and 20 years of experience.

Why don't I let my gas tank under 1/4.... because I just might for some unknown reason have to drive 70+ miles without stopping for gas.

The concept is simple, yes there are gear addictions, yes there are wannabe hard###'s out there who want to look tough or more prepared, yes there are genuine idiots.

Would you rather have a gun and not need it or need a gun and not have it?
Would you like to see a fight start or would you like to have a chair broken across your face?

Please spend some time around real men and women.

I'll restate this in one sentence.

Being prepared and aware of your surroundings is basic survival.
 
Any man/woman that has a house with children would be a fool to have less than a months supply of food and medicine that doesn't need refrigeration and at least 2 weeks of water if he/she possibly can.

Most people, myself included, would be lost living off the land. (Where I live, living off the land would be very different than wilderness survival).

That same man/woman, in most cases should own at least one firearm. A shotgun or revolver would probably be the best choices.

Most people would be best served staying at home, most cases there would be no need for that much stuff or the firearm. Most cases. You can get a brand new 4" inch .357 by eaa for less than $300. You can get a months supply of canned food for under $200. You can get the water virtually free. Some range time/.38 specials, doubt it would cost you more than $200 to get comfortable.

That is prepping. If that makes me a mall ninja, then so be it.

I think the number of mall ninjas out there are pretty limited. However, I do see a lot more people these days, esp. housewives, stocking food.


*edit I just realized I am a mall ninja, I own a bunch of lone wolf harsey tactical knives...damn it, i need more NYLON products!!!!!!
 
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Not always, but they usually are.

That seems to paint everyone with a broad brush, I would think you might want to look for different friends, or a better community. I would bet there are more folks in Canada with a decent store of food than you know simply because if like the US a storm coming in may shut down things for a few days and the grocery shelves usually empty in a day before a storm.
 
Many of us were taught basics by our parents who lived through a very major war and their parents who raised them during the depression. There may have been ninjas back then, but malls were unheard of. What was heard of was shortages of money, of food and many needful things. They were "green" before green was cool. They made things, recycled things, grew, processed and stored food for themselves, their families and neighbors. They were prepared to protect their families from hard times and bad people. All in all, it doesn't sound very "mall ninja-ish" to me. It was presented to me as wisdom and I still consider it wise. But then I am just an old Codger who had old-timey mentors.
 
I have a ccw permit. Later today the family and I are going to St. Louis. The city with the highest violent crime rate in the nation. Is it paranoia if I take a weapon?
 
First, let's admit that these definitions are arbitrary.

Most (but not all) would agree that survival implies a short-duration event that hopefully ends in rescue. It's also boring, tiring and not a lot of fun. Think of Les Stroud finding water, eating something that provokes an atomic crap every 15 minutes for days on end -- survival

Wilderness living -- I'll disagree with the majority. I don't see this as requiring no contact or support from outside. There are people who live in tents, small cabins with no plumbing or electric, etc by choice. They make a lot of what they live off from their own land. I'd classify that as wilderness living, even if they drive to a job, go to the doctor, or even buy groceries from time to time. Primarily they live off their land.

"Apocalypse" of course means "a revelation, or unveiling", not "a cataclysmic world-ending event".

Many of us were taught basics by our parents who lived through a very major war and their parents who raised them during the depression. There may have been ninjas back then, but malls were unheard of. What was heard of was shortages of money, of food and many needful things. They were "green" before green was cool. They made things, recycled things, grew, processed and stored food for themselves, their families and neighbors. They were prepared to protect their families from hard times and bad people. All in all, it doesn't sound very "mall ninja-ish" to me. It was presented to me as wisdom and I still consider it wise. But then I am just an old Codger who had old-timey mentors.

Great point, Codger, and one I was going to make.
My parents were first-depression-era kids. My mother learned her lesson: she was a die-hard packrat. When she died we found out just how much of a mall-ninja prepper she was. Pantry stocked from to back, one solid mass of canned and boxed food. Cans stashed under the stairs, food in her hope chest, food in boxes in the basement. Apparently when she went to buy something, she bought 15. Dozens of blankets, at least three sets of linen for each bed, unopened packages of underwear, etc.

Oh yeah, going through her dresser wondering why the drawers were so hard to pull out. A few layers on clothes, and under them, boxes and boxes of shotgun shells. Yep, mommy mall-ninja.

More than once my father got laid off for extended periods (once for almost two years), and we never missed a meal or went without clothes.

My father? Is is and always will be a fool. To this day, he'll only buy about 3 days of food and wait until he's completely out to get anymore -- claiming he saves money (except that it's an hour's drive to the nearest small, i.e. high-priced, store. He doesn't factor gas money). Has run out of gas 3 times in the last year because he won't put any in until the low fuel alarm goes off, and then can't get it through his head that $10 in gas won't go a whole week anymore, especially driving a pickup.

I take after my mom.
I'm even one of those evil guys that kept his web gear and cammies from his military days.


I think maybe the guys who deride preppers needs to come to the realization that what they are railing against is what Hollyweird [too un-PC top say what they really are] sees such people as, and reflects maybe a very small percentage of the actual people. They might also want to look at things like Eastern Europe after the fall of the Soviet Union, New Orleans, the middle east, and all sorts of events that truly meant the end of the world as those people knew it. Such things are far far more likely than a nuclear/asteriod/zombie end of the world scenario, are happening with increasing frequency, and unlike the aforementioned are very survivable.

BTW, I got hit with 2 Cat 4 and one Cat 2 hurricane in 2004. There was NO looting (one out of area trespasser who was run off by some mall ninjas), no violence, and hence, no news coverage anywhere near where I live. Why? Because we're a bunch of mall ninja preppers. :D
 
Incidentally it won't be a nuclear apocalypse or an asteroid, it will be people rioting in the streets in conjunction with shortages of essentials. Putting up a few supplies that you rotate throughout the year is never a bad idea. What if you lost your job today and didn't find work for a couple months? Could you make it without welfare? I can. Being self sufficient is never wrong.

I agree being prepared for a short period of time is just being safe.
 
And as this thread has run it's course and nothing of any import is being contributed by anyone anymore, it is closed.
 
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