Surviving on making knives alone...?

[sunshadow]

I have a full time job looking at jet engine metal through a microscope, I also work 50 plus hours per week self employed craftsman, I sleep 5 hours a night. I have to have the day job for health insurance, with my health issues it is not optional. My wife works full time plus has a part time self employment income.
I have been entirely self employed for about ten years of my life, living on mostly rice for those years is why I have diabetes and need health insurance now.

-Page

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

As bad as I want to be a knife maker as a grown up.... I just don't know how feasible it is.

My chest tightens when I hear statements like "it takes money to make money", "nothing in life comes easy" and other comments that read as if you have to suffer to make ends meet and self employment means grueling hours.

It is only true if you've already made up your mind that is HAS TO be that way. It DOESN'T HAVE TO be that way. You can work less, for yourself, doing something you love and be happy. Now, before you tell me to piss off... I'm not trying to cram rainbows up your butt, here. It takes knowledge, planning and determination. (notice I didn't say "sacrifice"? that was intentional.) Nobody is going to hand you your dream job on a silver platter. It may take years in planning (Like what Ed did.) but if you do it right and have the proper attitude, there will be no suffering. Prospective goals change everything.


snip


It troubles us to see our friends who make double the income we do, struggling to get by and complaining they have no money, only to turn around and jokingly mock us for not having a 60" widescreen HDTV with surround sound and an X-Box 360. The big crisis in my wife's family right now, is that her sister is going to have to "cut back" this Christmas because they are experiencing financial "problems".... They have 3 kids, each with an I-phone (as well as the parents), X-Box 360, inground pool, hot tub, 60"+ LED flatscreen HDTV with Blu Ray, 2 kids are in competitive dance, 1 kid in travel hockey, some Dodge Giant Super Diesel Monster truck... and too many more toys than I care to think of.... they go to Tim Hortons 2-3 times a day and order delivery because "its easier"...... My heart bleeds purple panther piss for them..... Time to reassess your priorities, folks.


I just don't want people to think that making a living from doing something you love is unattainable.


Rick

So it wasn't a filet mignon appetite on a burger budget.... it was a BBQ'd steak on a free ketchup packet budget!

I am of the opinion that there is no better way to make yourself unhappy than to think about the things you want but can't have. I am also of the opinion there is no better way to ruin doing something you love than forcing it to do something that doesn't fit (yet).

I'm sorry you didn't get your dream home. I have a similar story about my dream home, it was an old house and shop in a 23 acre hardwood stand. I couldn't get it financed because the majority of the value was in the land, and the bank required a large down payment for that. Then, a few years later there was another dream home, somebody snatched it up before I could. But I did eventually get my dream home (though most people would probably consider it a nightmare home), it just took time. BTW, my idea of a dream home changed over time and with the addition of children.

I'd suggest you figure out a way to maintain the passion you have for something you love (so many people live passionless lives, you're lucky), and don't force it to do something before you're ready. Perhaps you could take a couple of those degrees, accumulate some wealth for a few years, keep your "wanter" turned off, make outstanding knives part time and come back to full time in a few years when the time is right?

I might be in the transition of doing something similar to that myself right now.

 

[Tai Goo]

I put myself down as "sole income", but I also make some money at "knife related" things,... DVDs, hammers and teaching knifemaking. My wife currently also works part time.

For me, it's been real important to diversify and to try and keep my overhead down. I make a wide variety of knives and knife like objects, from inexpensive to expensive and everything in between. I also try to spend less on my business without effecting my income negatively or the quality of my product. “A penny saved is a penny earned.“

Over 30 years into it with no retirement in site, but I'd be making knives even if I didn't have to.

It's something to do...

 

[Fiddleback]

I got laid off on May 1 2009. I had been making and selling knives for a while before this. No options of employment, just a waste of time applying for positions. So, I went full time. I'm making what I was before getting laid off. My wife works, has a good career which provides insurance. If it wasn't for her, we'd have to abandon this house and find more meager means. But I think we could do OK once we'd re-structured.

The knives have been a blessing. My wife's first words when I told her of the layoff were, "We're screwed." But we haven't been late once on the mortgage. Earlier this year, she congratulated me. She says she's proud that I've made this work. That felt good.

The dollars ebb and flow. You have to get used to the ebbs. Especially nowadays. You also have to use the flow times correctly, or there just isn't anything to live from during the ebbs.

 

[12345678910]

For me, it's been real important to diversify and to try and keep my overhead down.

“A penny saved is a penny earned.“

You forgot the taxes, a penny saved is actually 2 earned.


I've seen your shop in your posts and you have an advantage with the weather that allows you to minimize costs with building, heat and such..

As Rich mentioned also, it's easier to keep costs down than it is to make more and, SELL more to get to the same position.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

I don't make knives, althought I've had several gracious offers from knifemakers to come and learn from them. I need to take them up on those offers. My father is self employed, and I have watched him struggle with the ups and downs of owning his own business. I feel for knifemakers, because as some have said, custom knives are luxury items. I was lucky enough to win a custom Scott Gossman Tusker, and was showing it off at a party. Most of the people there had no problem spending large amounts on hunting and fishing gear. I heard many comments about custom knives, including "There are actually handmade knives out there?" to "Wow, how expensive!".

Rick had mentioned small business loans from the local government. I'm sure they're not as prevalent as they were ten years ago, but I would check into them.

 

[Danbo]

I didn't vote in the poll, but you have to be an excellent businessman to make a living working for yourself-especially making knives.

Yeah, that. I'm lucky I have a full time job, as my knifemaking output is pretty pathetic, as far as quantity is concerned. I'd be one skinny knifemaker, if I had to do it for a living.

 

[NickWheeler]

There hasn't been much talked about regarding the TYPE of knives guys focus on...which may have a big impact here as well.

For instance, I am fortunate to have a pretty broad audience that can and will pay me $1,000+ for a knife. However, it takes me a REALLY long time to make that $1k knife. I have made some "simple" knives that were left with a machine finish (hunter/bushcraft types) that sold for $200. When you break it down, I can make about 10-15 of the bushcraft knives in the same time it takes to make that 1 expensive knife.

Seems like a simple solution!!! $1,000 for X amount of hours, versus $2,000+ for X amount of hours!!! However, you are also dilluting your demographic. YES, there are thousands upon thousands more folks that can/will shell out $200 for a knife than there are for the $1k+ knives... But if you step back a little you see an exponential effect. You need 10 collectors to make $10,000 with 10 high end knives. You need 50 buyers/collectors to make $10,000 with the user grade pieces.

So my point? There's no easy solution!!! :foot:


I wished I would have felt I had the right personality to be a nurse. They would have allowed me to go back to school to become an RN. I think I'm book smart enough... (barely) but I just don't have it in me to do that for a job. Too bad, as that's one of those jobs there will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be a need for. People always get sick. RN's around here make really good money, have great benefits, etc.

After writing all this, I think I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket.

 

[psycho78]

I'm a new maker, and this is on my mind constantly. I am a college grad working in the criminal justice field and have to scrape by every month. I'm thinking of knifemaking as a way to help supplement my income.

One of the things I have not heard considered are international sales, and cost of living in different regions of the US.

The cost of living in Kentucky is very different than other states. A gallon of milk here is about $2.50. In some other states/regions it could be $8. Regardless, the price of a simple machine finished custom hunter and sheath is going to be around $200 wherever you are. If you're in a state where you're drinking $8 milk, a few $200 hunters a week ain't getting you far. Here, that's a significant income.

I guess what I'm saying is that region and cost of living could determine a better chance of being successful at making a living from knifemaking.

Another thing I have considered is international sales. Alot of makers stay away from international sales, but I've heard that the solution for this is Paypal. Makers could be missing out on those gains too.

 

[Shing]

I think its useful to be able to make a variety of knives such as fixed blades, slipjoints and lockers to cover a wide market. Some collectors and users like to have folders and fixed blades by the same maker.

I agree international sales can add a significant proportion to a maker's income. Its a little more hassle than domestic sales but the overhead is not that great.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I'm a new maker, and this is on my mind constantly. I am a college grad working in the criminal justice field and have to scrape by every month. I'm thinking of knifemaking as a way to help supplement my income.

Dear Psycho,

A very good simple machine finished custom hunter and sheath by an established maker might bring $200. And he might have 8 hours and $40* in it, so that is a decent income. But he may not sell one every day.

But you're going to have a hard time getting that in your first few years. You might have $60 in it (due to scrap) 16 hours in it, and only get $125. That isn't minimum wage. And there is a long line of folks who start into this who never even recap their initial expenditures.

I have never met a maker who didn't grimace a bit when looking at his earliest work. There is a reason that established makers make more. They learn to see and fix the flaws. I think most of the folks spending $200 on simple knives know the difference. Mark my words, you'll be surprised how you view your own early work after a few years. I know that stuff that I thought was awesome a few years ago doesn't look quite so awesome to me now.

I believe that once you have experience and are making top notch work and can command the better pricing and your output is pretty efficient and your machine tools are paid for - then you can make it work. But before you get to that point - you need to be in it for the fun of it. Otherwise, if you're looking to supplement your income, you might be more successful delivering pizza. (I'm serious)


* I think that anyone who doesn't think they have $40 in a simple knife are missing some pretty big expenditures. The raw material cost of the steel, wood and leather are not the entire story...

 

[MSCantrell]

Otherwise, if you're looking to supplement your income, you might be more successful delivering pizza. (I'm serious)

Heheh, I can't help but chime in, to back you up on this specific example. As far as lousy jobs go, that one's the best.
You get the perks of being in foodservice (tips and eating the mistakes) WITHOUT the bad parts (coated in food and sweat, sorry coworkers). You just drive around town in your own car and you collect money. Plus, unlike wait staff, you get your minimum wage, not the cheapo waiter wage.

If I got in a money crunch, I would NOT say, "Hmm, I better make a few knives." Pizzas is way higher on the scale for making a buck.

 

[jaymeister99]

Ok, I had to join in. I think this is the deepest emotional thread Ive seen. I mean this sincerely, I commend several posters here.

Ive spent a large portion of my life trying to make big money. For a while I made great money... and hated my work. I changed to another career making less money, and hated that one even more.

I switched careers again. Now I can say I don't hate my work (but I don't love it). I now make less money than I have ever made in my adult life but I can honestly say this is the happiest time in my life. I have two kids, a home of my own, and a loving wife. Can I really complain?

The people I admire most aren't the ones with the most money and the most toys. I admire the guy who can wake up everyday and say they love what they do. I would gladly be a poor happy knife maker than an unhappy banker.

 

[sykes3170]

Ok, I had to join in. I think this is the deepest emotional thread Ive seen. I mean this sincerely, I commend several posters here.

Ive spent a large portion of my life trying to make big money. For a while I made great money... and hated my work. I changed to another career making less money, and hated that one even more.

I switched careers again. Now I can say I don't hate my work (but I don't love it). I now make less money than I have ever made in my adult life but I can honestly say this is the happiest time in my life. I have two kids, a home of my own, and a loving wife. Can I really complain?

The people I admire most aren't the ones with the most money and the most toys. I admire the guy who can wake up everyday and say they love what they do. I would gladly be a poor happy knife maker than an unhappy banker.

I really like this. Thanks! There is something about taking a plain piece of steel and turning it into a knife that gives a person a sense of accomplishment and worth. I guess alot of people that work with their hands are like this. The one thing about knives is there is a good chance of them being passed down to other gernerations. Who knows, maybe in five hundred years these knives will be treasured even more than they are now. Keep up the good work guys you are appreciated!

 

[Phillip Patton]

The people I admire most aren't the ones with the most money and the most toys. I admire the guy who can wake up everyday and say they love what they do. I would gladly be a poor happy knife maker than an unhappy banker.

I'd like to be a happy banker.

 

[butcher_block]

There hasn't been much talked about regarding the TYPE of knives guys focus on...which may have a big impact here as well.

For instance, I am fortunate to have a pretty broad audience that can and will pay me $1,000+ for a knife. However, it takes me a REALLY long time to make that $1k knife. I have made some "simple" knives that were left with a machine finish (hunter/bushcraft types) that sold for $200. When you break it down, I can make about 10-15 of the bushcraft knives in the same time it takes to make that 1 expensive knife.

Seems like a simple solution!!! $1,000 for X amount of hours, versus $2,000+ for X amount of hours!!! However, you are also dilluting your demographic. YES, there are thousands upon thousands more folks that can/will shell out $200 for a knife than there are for the $1k+ knives... But if you step back a little you see an exponential effect. You need 10 collectors to make $10,000 with 10 high end knives. You need 50 buyers/collectors to make $10,000 with the user grade pieces.

i made kitchen knives and then razors cause i saw all you guys fighting over hunter and bowie sales
now that said at this point (7years 3 ful time of making) i think i can make just about any style knife that a buyer would want so long as i have the specs (no im not talking about fine embellishment ) that is another skill set to learn
i make folders th have walk and talk a fighter now and then and i even get suckered into a hunter. the thing is one the folders i cant make $$ on them as the time it takes ME to make one proper could be better spent making knives im more proficient at.
i make al kinds of knives for 2 reasons
1 and foremost to keep me interested in making (gets boring flat grinding 10 kitchen knives or making a batch of razors)
2 like nick sad you cant flood athe market and expect to keep pricing up
i rotate the knife styles i make that "free me" from the batch work
some times neckers other times i ll make a folder or 2 or a special kitchen knife that is single bevel

one needs to keep things interesting not only for the buyer but also for the maker

 

[canid]

I'm a horrible businessman, and sometimes think Ii'm too stubborn to make real money.

I am far from the hardest worker I know, but do work harder for almost nothing that anybody else I know, between knifemaking, bowyery, programming and a couple other pursuits. I'd like to think that as my experience grows I'll have more opportunities to recover resources (I'll certainly never get the time back ).

If i didn't love it all so much I would have probably been far better off.

I think the starving artist life is a terminal addiction. For what little my experience is worth I certainly don't recommend half-assing it if you expect to succeed, or jumping in blind. Gotta find that middle ground.

 

[Ryan Minchew]

I like these threads I pick something up every time. I admire full time makers, they're doing something they're passionate about.
I have an associates degree in golf course and landscape technology. I now work for a hunting ranch. Hunting and knifemaking are two things I'm very passionate about, but not in that order. I'd go full time tomorrow IF I knew I could keep a roof over my family's head.
I will say I am way closer than I was two years ago due to one thing, Dave Ramsey's financial aid class. Laugh all you want, I couldn't fathom giving a guy a hundred bucks to tell me how to save money I thought it was dumb too. His class taught me to get rid of a enormous amount of debt (some credit cards, mainly vehicles) and allow my wife to take a part time lesser paying job and we have more money to do fun stuff than we did working two full time jobs. I use his ideas in my business and it's helped tons, so I just thought I'd offer that up. Everyone talks about managing money, but it's hard to do if you don't know what you're actually doing wrong.

 

[flatgrinder]

Bob Loveless once told me something along the lines of "Making knives is easy, trying to making a living from it is hard."

His advice to me was to work a full time job and be a knifemaker on the side ... especially these days because the economy ain't gonna get any better soon.

I should have listened to him. Got excited from all the orders, purchased a bunch of new machines and ran up all kinds of monkey ass debt this year. Later found out how fickle some customers can be and now I'm forced to sell off my "shop."

At this point, I don't particularly care to be a knifemaker. I spend more money (purchasing steel, handle materials, belts, tooling, etc.) than I make. Knifemaking can be addictive ... the steels and handle materials are the "drugs," the supply shops are the "dealers," and makers are the "addicts."

I'd probably be better off financially if I just masturbated in my spare time.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Heheh, I can't help but chime in, to back you up on this specific example. As far as lousy jobs go, that one's the best.
You get the perks of being in foodservice (tips and eating the mistakes) WITHOUT the bad parts (coated in food and sweat, sorry coworkers). You just drive around town in your own car and you collect money. Plus, unlike wait staff, you get your minimum wage, not the cheapo waiter wage.

If I got in a money crunch, I would NOT say, "Hmm, I better make a few knives." Pizzas is way higher on the scale for making a buck.

I delivered pizza a couple years back when I was in school. I'd do it again in a minute if I had to. Living in Raleigh didn't hurt.

I don't want to perpetuate the myth that knifemakers are doing good to make minimum wage, because that isn't true. Only some are. You can earn a reasonable living doing it, though there are easier ways to earn money. I do it as filler work, my shop was already pretty well setup for it.

I'm glad that Andy (Fiddleback) posted here. That guy is a modern day maker success story and a person I went to when I needed advice on this very subject. Kudos to Andy, he hit the ground running and did it (none of this wussy easing into it either). :thumbup: