Survivorman (the series)

[x39]

One of the more idiotic was eating a mushroom that he hoped would not be poison, all done with a smile on his face.

-Cliff

Maybe he knew something about that mushroom that he wasn't telling.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Maybe he knew something about that mushroom that he wasn't telling.

Consider what it implies about the possible consequences from the point of view of someone watching the show. Yes it is likely he knew what he was doing, however it is completely irresponsible to joke about eating unidentified mushrooms in the manner in which he did.

However, I did mention the point to you simply as one possibility to your question on how to avoid getting blood/gore on your hands.

Yes, and the method he uses is not how to do that and could readily lead to direct contamination, accidental contamination later on and cross contamination from many sources. Note he doesn't even describe exactly how he judges when the animal is cooked enough to eat. He doesn't remove the possible sources of contamination, he processes the contaminated animal directly in his camp, he doesn't talk about how to deal with any contamination if it does happen, doesn't talk about noting run off into water sources, etc. .

I would say that one of the worst things he did was drink directly from a puddle ringed with what he described as rat dung.do/feces....that is frightening!

He does things much worse than that, things which could kill you instantly and he does it in every episode, usually he warns not to do it, and then goes right ahead and does it anyway, never showing what you are actually supposed to do and of course this undercuts the actual seriousness of the consequences of doing what he did which would obviously lead people to believe "Well it worked for Les."

-Cliff

 

[LSkylizard]

How do you deal with cleaning them assuming your hands/knife becomes contaminated...

Various techniques to catch game will prooduce a lot of blood, so just handling it can cause contamination and plus cleaning it induces more...

...Yes, and the method he uses is not how to do that and could readily lead to direct contamination, accidental contamination later on and cross contamination from many sources...

...He does things much worse than that, things which could kill you instantly and he does it in every episode...

Cliff:

What are the answers to your questions? As far as cleaning your hands, I still say all you can do is to do the best you can and spare the H2O you can spare in a given situation. As for handling/butchering/cleaning, you seem to imply you know more on this subject. You seem as if you are already be knowledgeable about this subject and have pretty much shot down most if not all replies? Please tell us the answer/s. I am being serious and not sarcastic. I am curious as you seem to disagree with what he did and what has been posted by some.

Thank you

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I still say all you can do is to do the best you can and spare the H2O you can spare in a given situation.

Consider heading into an operating room and you can't wash your hands nor any of the instruments (or you can but no soap and you don't know if the water is actually clean and you don't have a lot of it) and they are not NIB but actually used for various tasks throughout the day, now how does this change your decision on if you operate? In obviously raises the risks significantly which changes the decision on even if you do operate. It doesn't mean of course that you can't but it certainly introduces the possibility and makes the situation much more complicated.

I am curious as you seem to disagree with what he did and what has been posted by some.

What he did was irresponsible, and note that he never takes any consideration of if he did get contaminated. As you know you don't need to actually see blood splatter to get contaminated. Consider walking with the animal on a stick and having it brush against various objects, then you brushing against the same objects, then touching your clothes, or just consider actually tripping when carrying it.

If for some reason I found myself in a situation where I absolutely had to eat an animal which I knew had a very high chance of being infected with a serious disease I would not club the animal which could indice spatter, I would not walk around with the animal, I would not take it back to camp and butcher it, I would not assume no contamination, I would not leave the areas unmarked, etc. .

Assuming the animal was snared I would pin it to the ground with a v-notched stick and kill it by suffocation. I would make a small cooking pit close but significantly away from the trapped animal (consider spray from the mouth or possible snare wounds). I would carefully clean it in a small pit then fill it in and carefully cook it over a small fire until the entire animal was well done, boil the knife used to clean it and burn all the sticks used to handle it then mark the area as contaminated so I, or someone else with me didn't go around there later and for example go grubbing and end up digging through entrails. I would also assume I had contaminated my hands and wash them before eating.

You would also want to look at any local water runways and consider rainfall, and if it was actually raining and/or lots of winds it gets worse. But just simply I would be much more careful and assume the worst. A few years back while I was on council there was an issue with local contamination and waterways and we had to consult with enviromental control, I learned a lot there, it isn't the specific information, but the general mindset, the implementation changes but the goals are always the same.

I have also had several friends suffer from food poisoning and watched the effects being treated in a hospital with all the resources they had at hand with lots of medical training, I would really not want to try to go through that alone with no doctor and no resources while also trying to stay warm, stay fed, signal/travel, etc. . It is pretty serious and I think he just really underplayed it, just like he does with every situation, it only needs to go wrong once for it to be an issue and whe you have no resources available, no 911 call, even fairly trivial things can be really bad and you don't always have the fall back of if I don't make it out then a rescue team will pick me up.

-Cliff

 

[LSkylizard]

Consider heading into an operating room and you can't wash your hands nor any of the instruments (or you can but no soap and you don't know if the water is actually clean and you don't have a lot of it)...

The way healthcare re-imbursements are being cut today, I may have to do without soap

Seriously, I am no expert on FIELD survival as I mentioned elsewhere. I did Boy Scouts growing up, infantry enlisted training, and 10 years later officer training. In between, I did a bachelors in microbiology with primary research in Chile, South America on food born pathogens and contaminates such as pseudomonas, samonella, E. coli, Campylobacter, giardia, etc... In the end, I have seen that the best you can do in the field is usually a matter of what you have and what you can spare (i.e. how much water and any soap?). This ultimately means you can not sterilize but only do your best to decrease the inoculum load of the pathogens. This is usually adequate for for the vast majority of pathogens because there is usually a critical mass required to make it past your stomach acids and enzymes. All bets are off if you use prilosec or or some other acid blocking medications.

Thank you for answering. I find it useful when individuals don't just knock the mistakes of others but list alternative options.

 

[Troll Bait From Hell]

All bets are off if you use prilosec or or some other acid blocking medications.

This caught my attention, since I suffer from GERD and take prilosec. So to make sure I understand what you are saying, since I'm blocking some acid, I'm reducing the ability to kill pathogens that get into my stomach, increasing my chances of food poisoning?

 

[x39]

Consider what it implies about the possible consequences from the point of view of someone watching the show.

Cliff, I was being facetious. I was alluding to the fact that some fungi have psychotropic properties.

 

[LSkylizard]

...since I...take prilosec...blocking some acid...reducing the ability to kill pathogens that get into my stomach, increasing my chances of food poisoning?

Correct. The "critical mass" if you will of bacteria needed to overcome the stomach and make it to their point in the GI tract to cause mischief is MARKEDLY decreased.

 

[rhino]

I suppose this illustrates that carrying a bottle of gelled alcohol hand sanitizer may be a good idea. Soap and water work better, but if you don't have adequate water, it may be the best you can do. Plus, it makes a great fire starter!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

All bets are off if you use prilosec or or some other acid blocking medications.

It would be nice if things like this were noted in most of the manuals especially if the difference it makes isn't simply a small percentage risk. I don't use these, but many of my friends who are outdoors types readily do.

-Cliff

 

[Troll Bait From Hell]

Thanks, LSkylizard! Good info to have!

As an aside, I use the legendary Trangia alcohol stove when backpacking (try finding one of those in the US!) and use denatured alcohol in it (can get in the paint area of Lowe's, Home Depot, etc...).

I've often wondered if the benzene and other nasties in this to denature it would make it a bad idea to use it for disinfection if I or a someone with me were to get a bad wound while in the boondocks.

If so, I have access to some 100% ethanol. Any thoughts, anyone?

 

[LSkylizard]

... especially if the difference it makes isn't simply a small percentage risk...

I do NOT believe there are any large randomized studies to address this and provide specific percentages. However, it is well known there are different minimum quantities of bacteria required to successfully traverse the hostile stomach environment and result in intestinal disease/enteritis/etc... The minimum required number does markedly decrease if you make the stomach a less hostile environment by eliminating the acid.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Can you by altering your diet do anything to offset the chance of infection as isn't the level of stomach acid and specific enzymes activated influenced by what and how much you eat. For example reducing the level of water intake to cut down on dilution.

-Cliff

 

[LSkylizard]

Can you by altering your diet do anything to offset the chance of infection as isn't the level of stomach acid and specific enzymes activated influenced by what and how much you eat. For example reducing the level of water intake to cut down on dilution...

Generally and simplistically, no. Yes the amount of enzymes released from the pancrease has feedbakc control with what comes through the GI track. However, medications in the class such as prilosec/nexium (i.e. proton pump inhibitors) block acid production and this will not be offset by dietary changes.

It is generally thought to be more "natural" or closer to our evolution to eat smaller more frequent meals (though diet is a topic everyone argues on and everyone has an opinion). However, I would never discourage H2O intake for fear of increased risk of acid dilution. Drink H2O and do not worry about enzyme/acid dilution....Food actually is an acid buffer too...more reason to keep the meals small.

One thing you can do (at home) to offset pathogens in the bowel is to take live culture yogurts and even Lactobacillus capsules. basically regarded as "good" bacteria...probiotics. They fill all the niches and leave no room for pathologic bacteria to set up shop in you colon. The capsules and yogurt are not practical in the field Alot of research has been done on probiotics/colonic bacterial colonization restoration in infants with diarrhea resulting from extensive antibiotics. It is now common place to use accross all ages.

... increasing my chances of food poisoning?

It is important to keep in mind that there are a variety of types of "GI upset". Some food poisoning is from actual toxins already preformed in the food, some from bacteria entering into your GI tract, some from parasites, etc...it all varies.

 

[LSkylizard]

Let me give you some numbers about the "critical mass" or infective inoculum of some common bacterial pathogens and some microbiology stuff. Please note that the number in parenthesis is an exponent, i.e. like "ten to the fifth power":

The infectious dose of E. coli O157:H7 for humans is only 10 to 100 organisms (which is low compared to that of most other enteric pathogens)

Shigella — 10 to 100 organisms
Campylobacter jejuni — 10(4) to 10(6) organisms
Salmonella — 10(5) to 10(8) organisms
Vibrio cholerae — 10(5) to 10(8) organisms
Enterotoxigenic E. coli — 10(8) organisms
Yersinia enterocolitica — 10(9) organisms

other general classes/types/descriptors of E. coli:
• E coli, Enteroaggregative
• E coli, Enterohemorrhagic
• E coli, Enteroinvasive
• E coli, Enteropathogenic
• E coli, Enterotoxigenic

Yersinia pestis, the etiologic agent of plague
Plague is a zoonosis primarily affecting rodents...Rodents are the most important hosts...
Humans are accidental hosts who play virtually no role in the maintenance of Y. pestis as a persistent pathogen in the ecosystem. While transmission may occasionally occur by direct contact or ingestion, survival of the bacillus in nature is dependent upon the flea-rodent interaction...

Humans acquire the disease by several routes:

Bites by rodent fleas
Exposure to humans with pneumonic plague
Handling of infected animal carcasses
Scratches or bites from infected domestic cats
Exposure to aerosols

Flea bites are the most common route of transmission of plague to humans, followed by contact with infected animals. In about 14 percent of cases, the source of infection is unknown. In the absence of epidemics, plague is largely a disease occurring in wild animals, with humans being an accidental victim.

The most common animals to transmit plague in the United States are squirrels, rabbits, and prairie dogs, although undetermined species account for about one-third of cases...

Bacillus anthracis, the causative agent of anthrax...
B. anthracis is a sporulating Gram positive rod. It is nonmotile and grows aerobically...
Spores of virulent B. anthracis, when introduced subcutaneously, begin to multiply. Production of the antiphagocytic capsule facilitates local spread, while exotoxin production produces extensive brawny edema and tissue necrosis.

Airborne anthrax spores... Spores between 2 to 5 microns in size are deposited on alveolar ducts or alveoli. They are...transported to mediastinal lymph nodes, where they multiply and cause a hemorrhagic mediastinitis but usually not a true pneumonia. Bacteremia and meningitis are frequent complications [17,18].

Gastrointestinal anthrax follows ingestion of grossly contaminated and undercooked meat. Anthrax bacilli are transported to...lymph nodes with the development of hemorrhagic adenitis, ascites and septicemia.

Anthrax is a rare infection in the United States....

 

[RGRAY]

I caught it today on the science channel (SCICH) for the first time.

There was 3 episodes back to back.

I caught the end of one in Alaska (he tried to catch a seal with a pole with a hook on the end through a hole in the ice).

The second episodes was in the swamps of Georgia.

The third episode was in the Canadian Rockys.

The best thing I saw was a "prisioners match"; he took lint from his cotton socks stuffed in the end of rolled up tissue page and lite it with the spare of an empty lighter.

 

[Ebbtide]

And after making his prison match he said to always wear cotton socks.

Cleary entertainment, not instruction.

I do enjoy watching though and I occasionally, guiltily, root for mother nature.

 

[LSkylizard]

I TIVO'd 3-4 episodes from the marathon. I saw the seal blubber, polar bear hiding, failed seal hook episode with his tinder blasted all over. It was definately entertaining.

 

[Cranky]

It's entertainment thats all....no one ever said (including Les) that his show was the survival show to end all survival shows. Everyone here seems to be an expert.....sheesh lighten up. I have seen some things on the show I would not do but I have also learned a few things. Take what you will from the show....at least its a show about survival even if you don't fully agree with his actions.

Oh yeah.....this is my first post.....hello everyone!















1

 

[LSkylizard]

I agree it's entertaining. Myself not being a survival expert, I find it useful to watch and then read from others on this site what they think might be correct, incorrect, or better done. I have not been in most of the conditions he places himself into. Having said that, I agree, some are pretty hostile in their critics.

I will put a caveat about his show...He clearly sets his scenarios up for an anticipated 7...10 day max ordeal. Given that scenario, you probably can get away with suboptimal survival practices because your looking for more expediant solutions.

From my limited expertise, I still seem to feel:

...I would say that one of the worst things he did was drink directly from a puddle ringed with what he described as rat dung.do/feces....that is frightening!

But, that has already been adressed.

Hey, welcome to the forums.