SV30 on Shapton Glass results

[Toothy Wolf]

I’ve been practicing with waterstones for a wile now and tried out a new progression on my SV30 Canis from Spyderco. I raised and removed a burr on Shapton Glass 500. After going through a series of feather light strops on the stone. I jumped right to the 6000 with light edge trailing strokes only. Say 50 per side in total if I had to guess Figured I try to polish the teeth that were formed on the 500. What I got blew my mind. Push cut paper easily and popped the hairs off my arm, but still cut threw para cord like it wasn’t there. Not sure if it was a good test but I was impressed. Just thought I’d throw it out there and see if any of you had any feedback.

 

[SVTFreak]

Good to know. I ordered shapton glass 500 and 2k for my yaxells (primarily) today.

 

[Jason B.]

The Toothy-polished edge not only feels very sharp but also makes for one of the best cutting edges. The 500/2000/16,000 are my primary use stones, this combo makes for some of the best in toothy and polished edges. The ceramic abrasive that makes them fast also allows them to polish, the 2k for example can quickly apply a sharp edge but if you spend a few extra minutes to let the stone load and the abrasive wear you will gain a bit of polish and a lot of sharpness, you will also have a very clean and burr free edge. The 16k is also very good to follow directly after the 500, it's basically like a hard and flat super strop.

FYI, always keep your Shaptons flat... lap before each use. Atoma 400 would be ideal but cannot be used for sharpening.

 

[Baron Mind]

I've been trying to leave my edges a little more aggressive as well lately. 300 grit metallic bonded diamond, 1k ocb venev, 3k diamond plate, 2k ocb venev, minimal stropping. I like the performance a lot.

 

[SVTFreak]

How do you keep them flat? That’s the part I haven’t researched yet.

 

[Blues]

How do you keep them flat? That’s the part I haven’t researched yet.

One can use SiC grit / powder, such as the sort sold by Edge Pro for their hones...or you can use diamond bench stones, generally the Atoma is most recommended, but others have had good results with DMT or generic diamond hones through vendors like Chef Knives to Go and others.

Jason B. is an excellent source for information about keeping the Shaptons ship shape.

 

[Toothy Wolf]

I’ve guess I should say I’ve been cleaning my stones with the Shapton disc. It’s not large enough to do any real flattening. But it does keep the stone nice and fresh. I haven’t had that many sessions on them yet but they do seem to be staying very flat. Been trying to use the corners of the stones more as well. I would like to get a Nano Hone flattening stone. They seem to get great results. But $$$$. Maybe tax return if I’m lucky.

 

[Blues]

You can go to Gritomatic and buy SiC grit for not much money, and use a glass or ceramic tile as your lapping surface.

https://www.gritomatic.com/products/silicon-carbide-powder?_pos=1&_sid=e784570f3&_ss=r

 

[Jason B.]

There are many lapping plates to pick from but you hear about the Atoma the most becasue it works the best. Instead of individual diamonds the Atoma plate has engineered diamond clusters that sit higher above the surface of the plate. This works exceptionally well when lapping stones because it provides somewhere for the removed material to go.

The Shapton stones are literally designed around the idea of extreme flatness so if you are not keeping your stones flat at all times them you should have never bought Shapton stones. The second reason you want to keep them flat is because you never want to experience a dished Shapton stone TRUST ME!

 

[Mr.Wizard]

The Shapton stones are literally designed around the idea of extreme flatness so if you are not keeping your stones flat at all times them you should have never bought Shapton stones.

I don't understand what this means. Any old vitrified stone should be just as flat once lapped, no?

 

[Jason B.]

I don't understand what this means. Any old vitrified stone should be just as flat once lapped, no?

Shapton Glass stone were originally designed to sharpen high hardness tool steel woodworking tools. The large flat bevels found on these tools need to be sharpened on very flat stones thus the Shapton Glass stones were created. They use float glass as a base because it is the flattest glass and adds a lot of rigidity to the stone. Its coated with some the highest quality ceramic abrasive for fast cutting and very slow wearing qualities but this is just half of the equation. The DGLP or the reference plate are specifically made to lap and true the stones, they are EXTREMELY flat and the DGLP is diamond over glass so even flatter than a diamond plate. I personally prefer the Atoma diamond plates for my lapping needs but will probably switch to the Nano hone lapping plates in the future. The are also very flat lapping plates but provide better lapping action and surface texture to stone like the Shaptons and Nano hone.

A freshly lapped Shapton is a very flat and precise tool, noticeable better than other stones and also produces flatter bevels with cleaner lines. It like anything with better tolerances, it yields better results.

 

[Toothy Wolf]

Shapton Glass stone were originally designed to sharpen high hardness tool steel woodworking tools. The large flat bevels found on these tools need to be sharpened on very flat stones thus the Shapton Glass stones were created. They use float glass as a base because it is the flattest glass and adds a lot of rigidity to the stone. Its coated with some the highest quality ceramic abrasive for fast cutting and very slow wearing qualities but this is just half of the equation. The DGLP or the reference plate are specifically made to lap and true the stones, they are EXTREMELY flat and the DGLP is diamond over glass so even flatter than a diamond plate. I personally prefer the Atoma diamond plates for my lapping needs but will probably switch to the Nano hone lapping plates in the future. The are also very flat lapping plates but provide better lapping action and surface texture to stone like the Shaptons and Nano hone.

A freshly lapped Shapton is a very flat and precise tool, noticeable better than other stones and also produces flatter bevels with cleaner lines. It like anything with better tolerances, it yields better results.

The more I see you post about never experience a dished Shapton, the more I fear it. You make it sound like a it would take for ever to flatten it or the very least take all the joy I have in sharpening out of it. I dished out a few inexpensive stone pretty badly. Just threw them out and started new. Then I learned about flattening and have bought much higher quality stones as I felt more confident. After hours of reading reviews i figured there’s only one way to find out. I bit the bullet and purchased a Nano Hone Button Tech. It seemed like so many other plates would require two plates to cover the same grit rang of one Button Tech. I’ll keep you guys in the loop after I get it and try it out.

 

[Jason B.]

The more I see you post about never experience a dished Shapton, the more I fear it. You make it sound like a it would take for ever to flatten it or the very least take all the joy I have in sharpening out of it. I dished out a few inexpensive stone pretty badly. Just threw them out and started new. Then I learned about flattening and have bought much higher quality stones as I felt more confident. After hours of reading reviews i figured there’s only one way to find out. I bit the bullet and purchased a Nano Hone Button Tech. It seemed like so many other plates would require two plates to cover the same grit rang of one Button Tech. I’ll keep you guys in the loop after I get it and try it out.

Very good choice! little jelly, I want that as my next lapping plate. I have used them and they are very good at lapping hard waterstones, it will also leave an ideal texture on the stone which will improve the sharpening performance and feel.

Shaptons are simply harder than other waterstones and when they dish it is a real task to remove. I have been there, it was awful.

 

[SVTFreak]

How long can I expect the shapton to go before needing flattening, assuming I do not let my knives get real dull. I am a fan of doing less work more often. Roughly speaking, of course.

 

[outlandish710]

I use cheap (3-5$ish) diamond plates from AE to flatten my 2k shapton GS, works very well. Specifically I mark the stone with pencil, test on glass + SiC paper, then use the plates to take of the high spots, lastly finish on glass + SiC paper, which can take multiple sheets of paper.

@JasonB could you talk a bit more about the type of abrasive in glass stones and why its not used more widely?

 

[Jason B.]

How long can I expect the shapton to go before needing flattening, assuming I do not let my knives get real dull. I am a fan of doing less work more often. Roughly speaking, of course.

You should lap the stone before every use.

This not only ensures your stones is always flat but the abrasive is fresh. When you use the Shapton, like any waterstone, the abrasive on the surface dulls, fractures, compresses and releases. This "used" abrasive does not cut like fresh abrasive so you should never use your stones if not lapped between use.

Waterstones are a sharpening process, they are a tool that needs to be used from start to finish without much change. Once you start sharpening on a waterstone you simply cannot stop half way through then start on another knife, you can but it won't yield the same results. Because the stone is doing more than just sharpening you need to learn how to "work the stone down" until the stone is done sharpening.

I use cheap (3-5$ish) diamond plates from AE to flatten my 2k shapton GS, works very well. Specifically I mark the stone with pencil, test on glass + SiC paper, then use the plates to take of the high spots, lastly finish on glass + SiC paper, which can take multiple sheets of paper.

@JasonB could you talk a bit more about the type of abrasive in glass stones and why its not used more widely?

For starters, the stones are probably cutting your SiC paper more than your paper is cutting the stone. This is sintered ceramic abrasive in a binder and I have watched it eat up cheap diamond plates so the SiC paper is probably just barely making the cut, literally. Depending on the grits you are using for lapping its probably greatly affecting the performance of your stones causing them to polish much more than they should. A 300-400 grit diamond is about ideal for the 500-30k stones and obviously coarser for the 120, 220 and 320 stones. Using any finer on the 500-30k will cause Glazing issues and a poor cutting stone.

Using a proper lapping plate and not cheap diamond plates that cost less than lunch will make a big difference too. Im sure your Shapton are far from flat or have proper texture at this point. You would be doing yourself a big favor by purchasing a good diamond plate, Atoma 400 is one of the better options under $100.

The abrasive in these stones is listed as "High quality ceramic" and through some searching and phone calls I have found to the best of my knowledge that the abrasive is sintered ceramic which is basically aluminum clay heated to extreme temperatures until it turns into Alumina Ceramic. This abrasive is very hard and only diamond and CBN are harder, thus the reason these waterstones cut so fast and polish so well.... and should be lapped with a diamond plate.

Not used more widely because Shapton does it best and most others use Aluminum oxide or Silicon Carbide in a wide range of binders. It's a good abrasive but if you sharpen a wide range of knives or specific types of knives its not always the best choice. Having stone options is good and often necessary with the endless possible knife styles and steels.

 

[Toothy Wolf]

You should lap the stone before every use.

This not only ensures your stones is always flat but the abrasive is fresh. When you use the Shapton, like any waterstone, the abrasive on the surface dulls, fractures, compresses and releases. This "used" abrasive does not cut like fresh abrasive so you should never use your stones if not lapped between use.

Waterstones are a sharpening process, they are a tool that needs to be used from start to finish without much change. Once you start sharpening on a waterstone you simply cannot stop half way through then start on another knife, you can but it won't yield the same results. Because the stone is doing more than just sharpening you need to learn how to "work the stone down" until the stone is done sharpening.




For starters, the stones are probably cutting your SiC paper more than your paper is cutting the stone. This is sintered ceramic abrasive in a binder and I have watched it eat up cheap diamond plates so the SiC paper is probably just barely making the cut, literally. Depending on the grits you are using for lapping its probably greatly affecting the performance of your stones causing them to polish much more than they should. A 300-400 grit diamond is about ideal for the 500-30k stones and obviously coarser for the 120, 220 and 320 stones. Using any finer on the 500-30k will cause Glazing issues and a poor cutting stone.

Using a proper lapping plate and not cheap diamond plates that cost less than lunch will make a big difference too. Im sure your Shapton are far from flat or have proper texture at this point. You would be doing yourself a big favor by purchasing a good diamond plate, Atoma 400 is one of the better options under $100.

The abrasive in these stones is listed as "High quality ceramic" and through some searching and phone calls I have found to the best of my knowledge that the abrasive is sintered ceramic which is basically aluminum clay heated to extreme temperatures until it turns into Alumina Ceramic. This abrasive is very hard and only diamond and CBN are harder, thus the reason these waterstones cut so fast and polish so well.... and should be lapped with a diamond plate.

Not used more widely because Shapton does it best and most others use Aluminum oxide or Silicon Carbide in a wide range of binders. It's a good abrasive but if you sharpen a wide range of knives or specific types of knives its not always the best choice. Having stone options is good and often necessary with the endless possible knife styles and steels.

At the end of this you say “it’s a good abrasive..... but not only the best. Do you mean the abrasive in Shapton of the other abrasives you mention and the end of your post.

 

[Jason B.]

At the end of this you say “it’s a good abrasive..... but not only the best. Do you mean the abrasive in Shapton of the other abrasives you mention and the end of your post.

I mean that sharpening is more complex than you might expect, they are some of the best stones but not the be all end all of stones. Sometimes a King 1k and 4k is the ideal choice and others its a Shapton or a Chosera, depends on the sharpening you are doing.

 

[Toothy Wolf]

I mean that sharpening is more complex than you might expect, they are some of the best stones but not the be all end all of stones. Sometimes a King 1k and 4k is the ideal choice and others its a Shapton or a Chosera, depends on the sharpening you are doing.

Thanks Jason B. Still learning, and guess I’ll never stop. I heard that different steels like different stones. As well as different grinds, bevels and finishing grits. I thought that was what you were referring to. I never knew that steel was as picky about what we do to it, as we are as picky about what it does for us.

 

[outlandish710]

This not only ensures your stones is always flat but the abrasive is fresh. When you use the Shapton, like any waterstone, the abrasive on the surface dulls, fractures, compresses and releases. This "used" abrasive does not cut like fresh abrasive so you should never use your stones if not lapped between use.

The usual advice is to use more pressure to release dulled grain, you advocate using nagura more often instead. Makes sense, the nagura is harder than any knife so it will do a better job.

Depending on the grits you are using for lapping its probably greatly affecting the performance of your stones causing them to polish much more than they should. A 300-400 grit diamond is about ideal for the 500-30k stones and obviously coarser for the 120, 220 and 320 stones [2.03 Mg].

Yeah I use 400 grit for 2k GS.

You would be doing yourself a big favor by purchasing a good diamond plate, Atoma 400 is one of the better options under $100.

At that point, if I was seeking an even flatter, flawless grinding surface, I might weight cost of buying high quality diamond stones against simpler methods, i.e. SiC paper on glass (afaik Paul Seller's method). A sheet of paper is €0.30 or so, I'd have to go through 260+ sheets before the atoma (local price 80€) becomes more economic - altough it would probably more pleasant to use than fast-wearing paper.

The abrasive in these stones is listed as "High quality ceramic" and through some searching and phone calls I have found to the best of my knowledge that the abrasive is sintered ceramic which is basically aluminum clay heated to extreme temperatures until it turns into Alumina Ceramic.

Hm that makes sense although still quite vague (unsurprisingly bc industry secrets). Maybe the trick is to use softer sinterable elements (dk which) along with high purity alumina to get a ceramic bound that is soft enough to be used in hand grinding. I'm assuming the 'clay' used is not a naturally occuring product (low alumina content in these) or at least purified. As per https://www.klingspor.de/en/lowdown-on-grinding 'Ceramic' here apparently refers to both to the bond (sintered ceramics) *and* the type of abrasive - agglomerated grains like the type used in cubitron etc. i.e. structurally but not chemically different material.