Sword Quality Ranking

Brian Bentley

Brian Bentley

Joined
Oct 28, 2000
Messages
103
Hello to all.

This is my first post in the Sword Forum even though I have been a member here at Blade Forums for a couple of years. I apologize in advance if this question seems a little forward for my first post here. I discovered the Sword Forum only a few months ago and wanted to look around and do all of the searches before I posted, to cut down the risk of asking a question that has been asked before. That being said I have not been able to locate a topic that covers the subject that I am asking. There are a few that are similar but none that asks the quesiton directly. I have long been fascinated with edged weapons and in particular swords but the ancient Japanese swords, my favorites, have been out of my reach financially. That being said.

Here we go.

You guys are the experts and obviously have much more detailed knowledge on this subject than I.

I wanted to know if anyone had or could put a ranking list together that shows swords in order of value, artistry, durability, functionality, and basically overall quality. I am not looking for a "working man's" sword, or mearly a display piece. It would probably never get any usage, but I do want a sword that is "The Real Thing". I am talking about ranking swords on a scale of 1 to 10. A 10 being a sword that an actual Japanese Samarai would give anything to own and a 1 being basically a sword in theory/looks only. I would like to keep the discussion within reason, financially, for a regular Joe like me so the upper end would fall within the range of $5,000 or less, and go down from there based on quality. I am really looking for an heirloom quality sword. My problem is that I am trying to keep financials within reason. Please don't let price be a determining factor. For example, if a sword rates a 10 based on artistry, quality, durability, fit, function, and quality. Don't let the fact that it costs only a couple of hundred dollars keep it out of the running for value. I do realize that with swords, like most everything in life, you get what you pay for.

I guess that as a sub list or other thread one could rank steels, makers, etc. What I am looking for is the absolute best quality for the money in an heirloom type weapon.

I appreciate your patience, and indulgence.

Thanks,

Brian
 
For heirloom quality you will probably want to research nihonto until you're confident you can tell a fake.
If I had $5k to spend on a japanese style sword, I'd get either one by Howard Clark and polished/fitted by someone he recommends, or one by Bailey Bradshaw. Bailey has posted photos of two beautiful swords recently, and Howard Clark's reputation is excellent. Wally Hayes also makes beautiful katanas.
For European swords I would contact Kevin Cashen. His work is beautiful.
 
I think it would be very hard to compile such a list. Howard Clark, Michael Bell, Rick Barrett, and Scott Slobodian are all outstanding American makers.
 
If you want a 'real' sword for a -very- reasonable price,
these are as real as you get.

http://www.himalayan-imports.com/sword.html

Made by traditional bladesmiths in Nepal
(not the tourist kind)
And they are based on a specific example of antique Japanese katana;
Edo Period.
Story & discussion of its origin:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126439

The same bladesmiths make several other regional swords
(Nepal & surrounds).

Search these forums for
himalayan katana
to see others comments.
107 threads include mention.

No, they are not Japanese Katanas,
but they are hand forged & differentially hardened
(not fancy hamons shown by expensive polishing,
but they can be etched & polished to bring out the 'temper-line')

Bottom line - A real sword, by whatever name, cuts as deep.

~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<>call me 'Dean' :)-FYI-FWIW-IIRC-JMO-M2C-YMMV-TIA-YW-GL-HH-HBD-IBSCUTWS-TWotBGUaDUaDUaD
<> Tips <> Baha'i Prayers Links--A--T--H--D
 
Well functional... I'm sure it is, I've heard nothing but good things about HI stuff in the functionality department but a katana? Not so sure about that. How about a vaguely katana shaped saber? Sorry not trying to be snooty and katana are not my thing at all, but that thing can only very charitably called a katana. It doesn't really have any of the things that make a katana a katana. The blade shape and geometry appear to be off, the handle is way off, the scabbard is well a scabbard instead of a saya can't see the tsuba really in those pictures but I'm not holding out much hope for it....
 
Triton said:
Well functional... I'm sure it is, I've heard nothing but good things about HI stuff in the functionality department but a katana? Not so sure about that. How about a vaguely katana shaped saber? Sorry not trying to be snooty and katana are not my thing at all, but that thing can only very charitably called a katana. It doesn't really have any of the things that make a katana a katana. The blade shape and geometry appear to be off, the handle is way off, the scabbard is well a scabbard instead of a saya can't see the tsuba really in those pictures but I'm not holding out much hope for it....
Click to expand...
I guess Rob Criswell doesn't make katanas either then. If you follow this reasoning far enough, you get to the real purists who say katanas are only made in Japan :)
I figure if everyone who makes a boomerang shaped blade can call it a kukri, HI can make a katana. Frankly, it handles a lot better than the Cold Steel, which tries to look traditional.
 
I cannot speak for Triton (Hah!) but I have always had the very strong impression that Japanese sword shapes and such were quite traditional, one might almost say tradition bound. If that is, indeed, the case, then the shape of a katana would be very important. I can speak better to the HI attempt to make a Seax knife than I can to a katana by them. I had really considered ordering one during the development period, but when I saw the final product, the hilt was that of a khukri and not a seax, it bore no resemblance to any historical seax that I have ever seen. HI has great blades, but their attempts at non-Nepalese types of weapons depart too far from the traditional and historical designs for my taste.
 
FullerH said:
I have always had the very strong impression that Japanese sword shapes and such were quite traditional, one might almost say tradition bound.
Click to expand...
There are a lot of historical Japanese sword patterns
over a very long history.
Here's just one place to quickly see a variety:
http://www.dguertin.com/Japanese Swords.htm
There are many "academic" sites with more detail.

If a katana in Japanese history
is a single-edged curved blade of greater than a certain length,
then there are still a lot of katana patterns.

And within even the most commonly accepted Nihonto
there are many books & pages describing variations of
curvature, edge grind, tip grind, profile, cross section,............

---------------------------------------------
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/terms/terms.htm
shape.gif


http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/sugata/shape.htm
"Many people believe that the Japanese sword blade has only one specific design; however, the Japanese sword has undergone significant changes in shape over the centuries. In many cases knowledge of these changes in shape (sugata) can be an aid in identifying the period of the blade. Some of the changes were the result of changes in battle tactics, type of armor and/or simply changes in style dictated by the fashion of the day. "

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/niku.htm
niku2.gif


and:
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/glossary.htm
"The buke-zukuri style of sword mounting is the most common type seen today on antique Japanese swords. It is also called the uchigatana or katana style.":
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<>call me 'Dean' :)-FYI-FWIW-IIRC-JMO-M2C-YMMV-TIA-YW-GL-HH-HBD-IBSCUTWS-TWotBGUaDUaDUaD
<> Tips <> Baha'i Prayers Links--A--T--H--D
 
I looked at the references in your post, and none of the swords therein looked like the ones from HI, especially where the hilts are concerned.* Now, I understand that you can special order an appropriate hilt, but at what cost? Does that render the low cost that was posted as an advantage no longer a point to be considered? And, finally, how about the scabbard for your sword?

Understand, I am not criticizing the quality or durability of anything that HI sells, only their historicity.

* I doubt that I have ever seen a genuine Japanese sword with a hilt that has two wooden scales riveted to the tang.
 
FullerH said:
I am not criticizing the quality or durability of anything that HI sells, only their historicity.
* I doubt that I have ever seen a genuine Japanese sword with a hilt that has two wooden scales riveted to the tang.
Click to expand...
You are absolutely right in all your points;
Though it is inaccurate to imply to other readers that all the HIKat's have riveted scales,
-most- have peened through-tangs, :) still not Japanese katana style.

my point
is that someone looking for a Katana-Like-SWORD
[-not- a Katana-Like-object]
should consider the HI Katana-Like-SWORD.

If HI had chosen a different name for the Himalayan Katana
[which looking back, they likely should]
then this discussion wouldn't occur.
I would have said,
"check out the Himalayan Slicer-Dicer if you're interested
in a Katana-Like-SWORD"

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175744
"I wouldn't hesitate to take it in harms way. ......Think of it as a Nepalese saber, and as such is as fine a weapon of this type as I have ever used. "---Finn

full%20katana.jpg


And as I already posted,
"they are not Japanese Katanas"
So, I'm -not- taking the position that they -are- katanas.
Neither does HI:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157303
"......The Everest Katana is not a Japanese clone by any stretch of the imagination. This is why we call it the "Everest" katana. It's the BirGorkha rendition and it shows that a kami who is used to making tough khukuris made the sword. The handle, for example, is there to stay no matter what. The scabbards vary greatly and are in no way traditional. ......
Those wanting a traditional katana should NOT get the Everest version......"---Bill Martino

& not being katanas, they don't have a tsuba.

The kamis were given the Edo period example katana
to find out what they would do.
They made the grip the way they decided to make the grip.
&, it turned out, the way the 'instigator' had in mind,
"this IS mechanically a Khukuri grip! That was my original idea, have the kamis do what amounts to a long thin Khukuri grip." ---Jim March

An interesting sidebar:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157303
"I recently got a copy of an intersting book ,"Decapitation and katana" on true katana history of its usage against our belief. Japanese army took katana, took them into warfare in China, broke many katanas on enemy and more by themselves. A soldier who had a katana in their hand for the first time was often tempted to try it on wood, sometimes on stone, or helmets. Most failed. Loosened or broken Mekugi (tang pin made of bamboo, removable), bent and/or chipped edge, etc, etc. Some were el cheapos but the defects showed up alike. A master katana kami who was employed to fix them and did on more than 2000 katanas reported that a katana was a poor weapon in battlefield. At least, the katanas of the day. He and his lab made some improved katana by studying how katanas had been used in feudal era. Their practically perfect katanas had thick, clamshell (convex) cross section, made of spring steel. Although they were perfect in terms of combat on the basis of their research, when they took the katanas back to Japan only to be pi$$ed off by "katana experts". ......"---WrongFriend

Even the Japanese swordsmith was rebuffed for doing something different.

I believe that a Japanese swordsman would have been happy with an HI Slicer-Dicer
if it had been available.
In a time before blades were -bad- if the ha-mon wasn't done exactly so
[art, not utility, & I do know there is a purpose in -some- of the ha-mon patterns]

~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<>call me 'Dean' :)-FYI-FWIW-IIRC-JMO-M2C-YMMV-TIA-YW-GL-HH-HBD-IBSCUTWS-TWotBGUaDUaDUaD
<> Tips <> Baha'i Prayers Links--A--T--H--D
 
Not a fan of Japanese blades, but if I was looking for great all-around blades I would go with an Angel Sword. They look great and Watson has a very loyal following of repeat customers.
Another selling point is the guarantee which, AFAIK, is unique.
"Angel Sword blades are guaranteed against breakage due to any reasonable misuse. Angel Sword guarantees the value of all pieces, if properly cared for. Any sword or knife may be traded up for a more valuable piece at the original purchase price, or increased market value (less a polishing fee, if necessary)......."
I know of several blades which were fixed at no cost after the owner really pushed the limits by trying to cut 8" oak trees or pipes. I have personally seen them make a 12 tatami mat cut.
AS will be at Texas Renaissance Festival Oct thru Nov and there are many to view online at http://www.angelsword.com/
 
FullerH said:
I cannot speak for Triton (Hah!) but I have always had the very strong impression that Japanese sword shapes and such were quite traditional, one might almost say tradition bound. If that is, indeed, the case, then the shape of a katana would be very important.
Click to expand...
FullerH said:
I looked at the references in your post, and none of the swords therein looked like the ones from HI, especially where the hilts are concerned.* Now, I understand that you can special order an appropriate hilt, but at what cost? Does that render the low cost that was posted as an advantage no longer a point to be considered? And, finally, how about the scabbard for your sword?

Understand, I am not criticizing the quality or durability of anything that HI sells, only their historicity.

* I doubt that I have ever seen a genuine Japanese sword with a hilt that has two wooden scales riveted to the tang.
Click to expand...
From post by ddean said:
You are absolutely right in all your points;
Though it is inaccurate to imply to other readers that all the HIKat's have riveted scales,
-most- have peened through-tangs, still not Japanese katana style.

my point
is that someone looking for a Katana-Like-SWORD
[-not- a Katana-Like-object]
should consider the HI Katana-Like-SWORD.

If HI had chosen a different name for the Himalayan Katana
[which looking back, they likely should]
then this discussion wouldn't occur.
I would have said,
"check out the Himalayan Slicer-Dicer if you're interested
in a Katana-Like-SWORD"

An interesting sidebar:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=157303
"I recently got a copy of an intersting book ,"Decapitation and katana" on true katana history of its usage against our belief. Japanese army took katana, took them into warfare in China, broke many katanas on enemy and more by themselves. A soldier who had a katana in their hand for the first time was often tempted to try it on wood, sometimes on stone, or helmets. Most failed. Loosened or broken Mekugi (tang pin made of bamboo, removable), bent and/or chipped edge, etc, etc. Some were el cheapos but the defects showed up alike. A master katana kami who was employed to fix them and did on more than 2000 katanas reported that a katana was a poor weapon in battlefield. At least, the katanas of the day. He and his lab made some improved katana by studying how katanas had been used in feudal era. Their practically perfect katanas had thick, clamshell (convex) cross section, made of spring steel. Although they were perfect in terms of combat on the basis of their research, when they took the katanas back to Japan only to be pi$$ed off by "katana experts". ......"---WrongFriend

Even the Japanese swordsmith was rebuffed for doing something different.

I believe that a Japanese swordsman would have been happy with an HI Slicer-Dicer
if it had been available.
In a time before blades were -bad- if the ha-mon wasn't done exactly so
[art, not utility, & I do know there is a purpose in -some- of the ha-mon patterns]
Click to expand...

This is what I was trying to say all along. I was merely trying to warn those reading this thread that, were they looking for the traditional katanas in all of their nitpicky glory, then the HI versions are not the ones to choose and I would suspect that this was also something like what Triton was trying to say.
 
Hey Hugh,

You never presume to speak for me but in this case I think you did a better job of trying to get my point across then I did. Also kudos to ddean for not taking offense at my post but rather taking it in the spirit in which I intended.

As for angel sword I think a lot of the same thought probably apply. Most of their stuff that I've seen doesn't fall into line with anything like any historical example I've ever seen. Not saying that they can't do it, just saying they usually don't.

It should also be noted that most reputable makers guarantee their products against breakage under reasonable use conditions.
 
Brian,
You say "I wanted to know if anyone...a ranking list together that shows swords in order of value, artistry, durability, functionality, and basically overall quality......but I do want a sword that is "The Real Thing". I am talking about ranking swords on a scale of 1 to 10. A 10 being a sword that an actual Japanese Samarai would give anything to own and a 1 being basically a sword in theory/looks only. I would like to keep the discussion within reason, financially, for a regular Joe like me so the upper end would fall within the range of $5,000 or less, and go down from there based on quality. I am really looking for an heirloom quality sword."

I note 'historical' is not one of your qualifications though it has some bearing.
A couple of hundred dollars will not buy you an 'heirloom quality' sword but you CAN do it for under $3000.
You are in Texas. If you get the opportunity go to TRF and handle the AS pieces, do so. COMPARE. I have 3 makers I have swords from. To rank smiths in a public forum may start a war, but I own an Angel Sword and my rank for Watson's work is 9 on your scale.
There are a number of smiths who can likely satisfy you. Handle many swords without prejudice. READ. Do internet searches. READ more. Educate yourself and don't buy the first thing that appeals to you and is inexpensive. Look into real antique edged weapons. There is a lot of coolness out there and there are a lot of fakes and crap.
Don't just jump. Especially with swords. You could get hurt. ;) and be careful also because swords can be an expensive hobby....
:D
 
Triton said:
It should also be noted that most reputable makers guarantee their products against breakage under reasonable use conditions.
Click to expand...


Not to my knowledge. Some makers offer warranties, most short term, and the makers who do define "reasonable misuse" differently than Watson does. You can take a Watson sword and cut up your car, and he'll replace it if it fails. Which other maker will do that?
 
bithabus said:
Not to my knowledge. Some makers offer warranties, most short term, and the makers who do define "reasonable misuse" differently than Watson does. You can take a Watson sword and cut up your car, and he'll replace it if it fails. Which other maker will do that?
Click to expand...

Who have you dealt with? Cutting a car in half is misuse.
 
Whether it is misuse is an opinion. Yes, I believe it to be misuse and borders on high disrespect and dishonors the blade.
The point is, Daniel does not. Nor did he need to fix any of the blades used in the 'test'. They all seem to have passed fhrough it with only minor easily repairable scarring. I have never seen another maker's blades be put to a similar test. I think most other makers would laugh at someone who used their blades similarly and wanted any kind of service or replacement and point to the "reasonable misuse" caveat in their warranty.
 
So you consider this sort of thing the test of what makes a sword a quality product?
 
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