Sword Quality Ranking

You seem a little antagonistic.... :confused:
There are many factors that go into consideration of ANY quality product. I detest crap. When I find a product that stands up to abuse, misuse, neglect and/or acts of god, I tend to be impressed. No. Those kind of actions are not what I would consider as my sole criteria of a sword as a quality product. I will never use my swords, even the cheap ones, that way. That a maker CAN create a sword that does withstand overtly abusive rigors that are well outside the 'normal' range of the 'expected' deployment is an example I note. I have noted it many times with Angel Sword products over many years.
'Cutting performance' covers a broad range of other factors which are necessarily included during the design phase. (Designing a sword goes far beyond reproducing a sword-like object from a drawing.) These factors include the metalurgical knowledge of the smith,his experience and his reputation with his many repeat customers. Some of his customers abuse the swords, sometimes to breaking. Sometimes seemingly on purpose.
I have been an Angel Sword fan for over 25 years and have seen and heard a lot, positive and negative. I am an AS 'family member' because I was able to sort the bulls**t out through time and experience. Daniel, as many others, create high quality swords and knives. As with anyone successful, there are egos and jealousies that cause bad blood and pettiness. Daniel has been justified over time and by his loyal customers to have the ego. He also happens to have a 'reasonable misuse' policy that makes each owner a member of his extended R&D destructive testing team.
If you do not wish to believe and want to go elsewhere to a smith you trust, so be it. May you be as lucky as we Angel Sword family members are. But then, luck is not really part of this equation.
May your journey also be true. :)
 
On the contrary I'm simply trying to determine what your criteria for a quality product is and what constitutes a good quality sword in your mind. What factors are the most important to you when purchasing a sword?

bithabus seems to be under the misimpression that quality sword makers do not stand behind their products. That has not been my experience.
 
Was not the original intention of this thread to determine WHO was a quality maker?
Angel Sword was introduced as "within the parameters of the question" and reasonably priced according to those parameters. Supposedly cheaper makers were being bandied about as 'good enough for the money'. I simply did not agree and in so, presented Daniel's work.
Bithabus may have spoken without thorough knowledge and with the blind loyalty loyal fans may have for the object of their affections. I know there are many quality makers who have a 'reasonable misuse' policy. I hope their customers are as satisfied with the extents of their chosen smith's generosity as 'we' are.
The factors I use have been shown in my last post. I am not into historical exactitude. I like uniquicy and historical is a 'been done'. Though 'fit and finish' are an AS quality they are not paramount to me as I tend to like a more 'used' and 'relic' look. Price, while a concern, is a strange notion when purchasing something like a sword. What is it in me that so 'needs' a sword has obviously overweighed my financial concerns. Kinda like 'needing' another knife.
So, for me, the aesthetics of what I like in combination with the idea, nay , the knowledge that the sword could be taken to extremes and not fail is apparently all I require. I doubt I will ever need it or use it as a weapon or even just to cut stuff. It is a (inaccurate) costume accessory that I can wear at Renfaire. I am sure many of us have blades we cannot traipse about with just anywhere. We use them as need or lack thereof dictates or as objects of beauty, handling them with the admiration that fills some deep down inner requirement that satisfies our fascination with blades as such.
I am sure the original poster has no real intentions beyond this and was only asking for our best suggestions as knowledgeable experts on the subject so he/she could get the best percieved deal for the intended level of final purpose.
I have little experience personally with other smiths/manufacturers, but my firsthand knowledge of Daniel's work qualifies me to opine and satisfies the question.
Thanks for asking.
 
Excellent, glad we got that cleared up. Personally I come from a more historical perspective. I prefer my swords to be as historically accurate as possible and in fact many of the swords in my collection are faithful reproductions of historic originals. Fortunately there are makers to satisfy all tastes and perspectives.
 
Excellent fellow! I did not realize whom I discoursing with. I had found your site sometime back whilst seeking a scabbard maker whose work fell within a reasonable price range and whose quality is perceived as outstanding. Sometime this next year I will be contacting you to fit an aesthetically pleasing (to me) yet non-historically accurate sabre-ish blade with a sheath. First I must realize re-employment and finish paying off the blade.
Your site is bookmarked and you will have my business. :)
 
Thanks for the kind words. :) Of course I'll be happy to help you out any way I can. Also at that time maybe we can talk about publishing a review of your particular piece? There isn't enough information about swords from various makers about and having knowledge readily available to everyone is good for all of us.
 
On the contrary I'm simply trying to determine what your criteria for a quality product is and what constitutes a good quality sword in your mind. What factors are the most important to you when purchasing a sword?

bithabus seems to be under the misimpression that quality sword makers do not stand behind their products. That has not been my experience.
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Well, I think we might have differing opinions as to which makers are "quality". The fact is that Angel Sword offers a lifetime warranty, and this warranty does cover "misuse". I agree that there are other aspects to a good sword besides toughness and durability (such as balance and harmonics), although in my opinion most Angel Sword products are very good across the board. My point was that the warranty offered by Angel Sword is by far the most comprehensive, and the only in my knowledge that applies to gross acts of abuse. Do I abuse my swords in this way, or recommend to others that they abuse them? Of course not! But it speaks to the quality of the weapons to know that I could, without fear of losing my investment.

You're a skilled artisan yourself. Why do you express such bitterness towards Angel Sword? On several forums you have spoken out against them, but have you ever experienced their products firsthand? I am not an employee of Angel Sword (although I do help sell blades sometimes at the ren Faire...), but I am a fan of their work. If you can make it to Scarborough Faire in March I strongly suggest you do so, and I'll be surprised if some of your opinions don't change. One of a kind custom swords are very expensive, whether they are made by Kevin Cashen, Howard Clark, Vince Evans, or Daniel Watson. You do get what you pay for.
:)
 
Bithabus may have spoken without thorough knowledge and with the blind loyalty loyal fans may have for the object of their affections
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I know Angus Trim just introduced a three year warranty that does not cover misuse.
I know Last legend has a warranty against breakage.
I don't know about the warranties of any other makers. It might be assumed that high end makers warranty their products, but this isn't very well publicized.
If you know of any warranties that I didn't just mention please let me know.

It's true that I have more Daniel Watson swords than swords of other makers, but I'm not blindly loyal. There are several other good sword makers out there, and each one surpasses Angel Sword in some ways. But, since most custom makers only do a handful of pieces each year, the waiting time can be very very long. The imbalance of my collection isn't due to a narrow vision but rather a lack of funds and patience.

Hey Merek, who's making your saber?

;)
 
bithabus said:
Well, I think we might have differing opinions as to which makers are "quality". The fact is that Angel Sword offers a lifetime warranty, and this warranty does cover "misuse". I agree that there are other aspects to a good sword besides toughness and durability (such as balance and harmonics), although in my opinion most Angel Sword products are very good across the board. My point was that the warranty offered by Angel Sword is by far the most comprehensive, and the only in my knowledge that applies to gross acts of abuse. Do I abuse my swords in this way, or recommend to others that they abuse them? Of course not! But it speaks to the quality of the weapons to know that I could, without fear of losing my investment.

You're a skilled artisan yourself. Why do you express such bitterness towards Angel Sword? On several forums you have spoken out against them, but have you ever experienced their products firsthand? I am not an employee of Angel Sword (although I do help sell blades sometimes at the ren Faire...), but I am a fan of their work. If you can make it to Scarborough Faire in March I strongly suggest you do so, and I'll be surprised if some of your opinions don't change. One of a kind custom swords are very expensive, whether they are made by Kevin Cashen, Howard Clark, Vince Evans, or Daniel Watson. You do get what you pay for.
:)
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??? I don't recall ever expressing bitterness towards Angel sword on this forum or anywhere else. On the contrary when Mr. Watson posted here I was unfailingly polite. I did in fact examine Angel Swords work at the blade show in Atlanta last year. They seemed to be of good quality to me although not personally attractive because of the criteria I mentioned above.

If you will do a quick search on "angelsword" on this forum you will see that I basically stated exactly the same thing well over a year ago.

If you do a similar search at SFI you will see I made this post in June of last year: I mentioned in my other post that everyone I talked to was extremely nice today at blade. One outfit I talked to was the AngelSword. I was a bit hesitant, from the stories I had heard but whatever. For the life of me I can't remember the lady's name but she went out of her way to show me basically ever blade on the table. She really went above and beyond. Now for a further bit of heresy. Some of the AngelSwords were rather nice. I didn't see anything that I thought was horribly accurate from a historical perspective but since I don't think that is really AngelSword's target market that is probably okay. There also seemed to be an inconsistency from a handling perspective. Some of the blades I handled seem very nice, they were balanced out properly and the centers of percussion were where they were supposed to be. Some of the others were decidedly showpieces. My favorites were a couple of fantasy sabers that they had. The were light and well balanced without being whippy everything that a saber should be in my estimation.

... and got the thread locked for my trouble. I'm not out to get angelsword, I harbor no bitterness towards angelsword. I personally wouldn't own one because they do not make products to my taste, but that's not a grudge just a personal preference.
 
OK, fair enough. The first question I ask any sword/knife/axe/whatever maker is "are all your pieces one of a kind"? If the answer is "no", then there is nothing they can do to stop me from walking away. For me, swords are art just as much as they are tools for killing. Historical authenticity is, for me, actually a negative. We can learn from the past, study artifacts that we have, and then make improvements using modern technology. I might admire a model T Ford in a museum, but I would never want to own one. It is difficult for me to understand that some people can buy swords with the knowledge that other people will own the identical piece, but, then again, lots of things are difficult for me to understand.
 
Hey there, B!
Your analogy to a first production run automobile in design infancy does not relate back to historical swords overall. Perhaps to early attempts made of unalloyed copper or before early smiths developed sophistication of design and alloy. Because a design is historic does not make it primitive or unsophisticated. To the contrary those weapons were developed and used over time to become the archetypes they are because they were better. As warfare and tactics changed, so did the weapons but, like you, few if any historical replicas appeal to my senses. To the chagrin of at least one person, whom I shall not name, I am likely to be improperly accessorized in a costumed event simply due to my penchant for being different. I will likely never strive for such accuracy. I prefer fantasy. It is a 60s thing. There are however many antique weapons which are archytypal to me and I want to own such as a kindjal, a jambiya, a kris and many other ethnic blade forms.

Daniel's warranty, as such, does not say you can abuse the blades, but when someone attempts to trim too large a tree or hits a pipe by accident, loyal customers tend to have the judgement in their favor. Not because Daniel sees it as his bad, but because he tends to be generous with his friends. I don't think every onetime customer, who shows no interest in being 'family' after the sale would have the same consideration.

As to the blade I alluded to, it is a Jody Samson 'Seaward'. It may not cut down forests at a single swipe, stop a speeding elephant or even have Daniel's warranty but I likes it very much I do.
Near the bottom (black background) here: http://jodysamson.com/limited-edition-swords.htm
Past work in the gallery. There are several which are not shown anymore. Many pictured I would purchase in a heartbeat if I'd had the opportunity and the $$$.
http://jodysamson.com/gallery.htm
 
Because a design is historic does not make it primitive or unsophisticated. To the contrary those weapons were developed and used over time to become the archetypes they are because they were better.
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Modern made swords are far superior to historic swords in every sense. As you point out they were developed and with each innovation became better and better. This development hasn't ceased, but it has slowed to a crawl. I would say that a modern car is to a model T Ford as a Howard Clark L6 is to a gendaito. I was just talking about this on swordarts, trying to explain why modern swords don't need to be folded, diff. hardened etc...

Congrats on the Samson! I in fact know just the piece you're talking about. He does amazing hiltwork, and his hollow grinds look vicious. There are a few blades on his site that I'm coveting, and just a few hours ago I sent an email regarding the khukri that he has for sale. Good stuff! You might want to ask him to put an extra sharp edge on your sword; I think I heard somewhere that he normally ships his weapons only semi-sharp.

Remind me at Scarby that I owe you a beer.
 
Modern made swords are far superior to historic swords in every sense.

That should probably be a qualified statement. How are they superior and by which maker? For example if you are saying that a sword made by whoever it is that makes Budk swords is superior in every sense... Or even if we look at katana you may be able to say that a Howard Clark L6 is tougher then any ancient blade (don't know if that is provable but say for sake of arguement) but aesthetically from what I understand the hamon and such are pretty dull. Aesthetic qualities are also part of what makes a superior sword for many people.

As for modern innovation making swords "better" again I think this should be a qualified statement. Innovation created the rapier after the medieval cruciform sword. Does this make the rapier better? No, it's simply designed for a different job. In a similar way is the type XVa medieval broadsword "better" then the type X? Well that depends do you need something for attacking a man in a suit of full plate or do you need something for slashing at a man who may or may not be wearing mail? Swords are designed to meet the requirements of their usage since most of todays usage consists of attacking targets of varying degrees saying that modern innovation creates superior sword designs in my opinion is off the mark. Saying modern materials create better swords on average might be true but it's still far from an absolute, much of that depends on the maker's abilities.
 
So you would not purchase a Model T made with modern methodologies and improvements, as you would not purchase a Viking sword replica made, say, by Angel Sword? :) :)
 
I intend to have it VERY sharp. I also have no reserves about it being hollow ground, normally reserved for knives, as I intend no abuse and if up against an armored foe, I'll use 20 ga. slug.
There used to be better pics of the original Seaward on the JS site. When I first encountered it a couple of years back I got instant blade lust. When he stated he was making more I was probably the first to plop my bucks down to reserve one. Not unique but not 1 of 100,000 either. Of course my sheath will be cooler than anyone elses....:D
 
So you would not purchase a Model T made with modern methodologies and improvements, as you would not purchase a Viking sword replica made, say, by Angel Sword?
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Right. If Angel Sword made a copy of a Norse sword from a museum then I would have no interest in that sword.
I would also say that a modern car is just an improved copy of the model T.

Triton, obviously I was talking about swords, not crap made by Bud K or whomever. I believe modern technology can vastly improve the perfromace of any historical sword design, be it rapier, katana, etc.. Your point concerning aesthetics is well taken, my statment was only in regards to performance.

Merek:
yeah, your Seaward won't be one of a kind, but I doubt you'll ever see another one (unless you buy two) hehe.
 
Triton, obviously I was talking about swords, not crap made by Bud K or whomever. I believe modern technology can vastly improve the perfromace of any historical sword design, be it rapier, katana, etc.. Your point concerning aesthetics is well taken, my statment was only in regards to performance.


Sorry not trying to be a prick... :o Just trying to be precise as that's how rumor gets started. "I just bought my trusty samurai2000 ninjatana cause some guys at bladeforums were talking about how modern swords are superior to ancient ones... "

I completely agree, modern steels etc. can vastly improve the sword. Whether the design can be improved... <shrugs> Well, anything is possible ...

I do understand your point about wanting a one of a kind item however.
 
Merek said:
I intend to have it VERY sharp. I also have no reserves about it being hollow ground, normally reserved for knives, as I intend no abuse and if up against an armored foe, I'll use 20 ga. slug.
There used to be better pics of the original Seaward on the JS site. When I first encountered it a couple of years back I got instant blade lust. When he stated he was making more I was probably the first to plop my bucks down to reserve one. Not unique but not 1 of 100,000 either. Of course my sheath will be cooler than anyone elses....:D
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Merek, just as an interesting side note I'm expecting a replica of the Svante Nilsson Sture sword sometime this week. It is deeply hollow ground. See you are being all historical... :)
 
Eeeew! :barf: It is STRAIGHT! No likee bi-symmetric cruciform swordses.
Imposing it may be but does not the hollow grind make a relatively weak edge compared to the armour/maille piercing convex grind? Which was more common for the era and opponent?
 
Apparently not, it seems hollow grinds can be found on a fairly decent percentage of high end historical examples. That is particularly fine swords seem to exhibit it. I suspect that they are less common due to the extra work involved rather then any durability issues. In test cutting with hollow ground swords they seem to have held up well.
 
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