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sword
- Thread starter samf
- Start date
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
Moderator
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2004
- Messages
- 38,512
Sam,
I don't know how much knife making experience you have, but a sword is a challenge. When you say "how much will the blade move" ,I am assuming you are speaking of the sori formed in a water quench. This is hard to estimate because it varies from one persons setup and procedures to another's. If you are quenching 1060 in water, a 20" blade( shoto-wakizashi) will form a 1/2" to 3/4" sori in most cases. If you are oil quenching, the blade will remain much closer to the same shape as it went into the tank. In the case of an oil quench ( which may be best for the first blade you do), the sori is forged to nearly the extent you want. It can be adjusted after the quench, but that takes practice and skill, too.
Post some info on your equipment and skill level. And that will help me with what level of info to offer.
Going out to the forge to finish unpacking. I'll come back later this evening and give you some more detailed yakiiri suggestions and links.
Stacy
I don't know how much knife making experience you have, but a sword is a challenge. When you say "how much will the blade move" ,I am assuming you are speaking of the sori formed in a water quench. This is hard to estimate because it varies from one persons setup and procedures to another's. If you are quenching 1060 in water, a 20" blade( shoto-wakizashi) will form a 1/2" to 3/4" sori in most cases. If you are oil quenching, the blade will remain much closer to the same shape as it went into the tank. In the case of an oil quench ( which may be best for the first blade you do), the sori is forged to nearly the extent you want. It can be adjusted after the quench, but that takes practice and skill, too.
Post some info on your equipment and skill level. And that will help me with what level of info to offer.
Going out to the forge to finish unpacking. I'll come back later this evening and give you some more detailed yakiiri suggestions and links.
Stacy
fitzo
Gold Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2001
- Messages
- 6,648
Hi, Sam! Long time, no talkee. Hope you are doing well.
Stacy, I've known Sam since early in his knifemaking. He knows what he's doing about bladesmithing and hangs with the Washington state damascus crowd.. Please help him with the sword info. Thanks.
Stacy, I've known Sam since early in his knifemaking. He knows what he's doing about bladesmithing and hangs with the Washington state damascus crowd.. Please help him with the sword info. Thanks.
fitzo
Gold Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2001
- Messages
- 6,648
Sam, excellent about the cutting comps! You did well getting to the finals with all that competition!
Nanc and I are doing okay. I haven't worked in the shop in some months; you know my health issues.
Thanks a bunch for the offer on the apples, but there's no need for you to go out of your way. Our local grocer has had a steady supply of Cameos and Galas the past couple years! I haven't had to fall back to Red Delicious in a long time. You got me very spoiled. LOL I still eat my apple every morning. Thanks again for turning me on to those two varieties. Good stuff.
Please tell Kelly I said "hi" next time you see him.
Good luck with your sword project.
Nanc and I are doing okay. I haven't worked in the shop in some months; you know my health issues.
Thanks a bunch for the offer on the apples, but there's no need for you to go out of your way. Our local grocer has had a steady supply of Cameos and Galas the past couple years! I haven't had to fall back to Red Delicious in a long time. You got me very spoiled. LOL I still eat my apple every morning. Thanks again for turning me on to those two varieties. Good stuff.
Please tell Kelly I said "hi" next time you see him.
Good luck with your sword project.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
Moderator
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2004
- Messages
- 38,512
Sam,
Great that you are ready for this step. Swords are to knives what heroin is to marijuana. Once you go there there is no return. The pay off is that swords are to knives what Single Malt Scotch is to Bud Light.
There will be fatal failures that will break your heart....and make you more eager to master the beast. Spend an evening doing all sorts of searches on "Japanese sword making", "yakiiri", "Japanese swords", etc.
You will find a lot of good info and links to other good stuff.I listed a good number of sites below.
The HT metallurgy of a Japanese blade is more than just the steel mix. It can be a mono steel,tamahagane, a san-mai, one of several types of multi-layer assemblies, or a modern damascus . The treatment of the blade, once the sunobe is done and the sugata is formed, determines the way the sword will end up. If you want a plain, but good quality sword, do the HT just like a long knife. Ausenitize the blade to the target temp, hold until the carbides and other alloys are properly dissolved, and quench in the proper oil to get a fully martensitic blade. Draw the spine to a lower temper than the edge. Easy enough ( OK, not so easy, but simple enough). To get a Japanese style differentially hardened blade, with or without a hamon, you need to have the blade harden at two different rates. This is controlled by the use of a refractory clay coating on the blade, with a heavier layer on the spine. The spine ends up pearlite ( or a pearlite/ martensite mix) and the edge ends up martensite. The boundary between the two may show the hamon. Using 1060 steel you should be able to achieve the desired effect easily. If you chose to use fast oil for the quench, the hamon will be less bold, but the risk of breakage will be nearly non-existent. The sori will be much less ,too. If you go with a water quench, you will get all that the steel and the clay coating will offer. The trade off is the risk of cracking ...or the dreaded "PING". The only way to learn it is to do it. It takes good nerves, and a willingness to step out into the risky unknown. The way I do the quench is "IN" -2-3, "OUT:"- 2-3,back in -2-3-4-5, pull out and check for straightness-quickly adjust, and back in the bath to cool. I use the same technique for fast oil. I suggest that you do one in oil first, and then try water. Everything is done the same ,otherwise.
Here are a few links to some good info. Jesus Hernandez is great at this. His site has been changed, but all you have to do is click on the "Go to new site" tab and it will connect you.
http://home.comcast.net/~jeshern/makingsteelintro.htm
Here are some other links:
http://inet.museum.kyoto-u.ac.jp/conference02/TatsuoINOUE.html
http://www.ncjsc.org/ncjsc_vis_glossary.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
http://www.barrettcustomknives.com/links
http://www.nihonzashi.com/diy_edge_geometry.aspx
http://www.dfoggknives.com/sword.htm
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=13809&highlight=Cashen&page=8
http://www.waltersorrells.com/blades/ ( great set of DVDs)
Here are some good glossaries:
http://www.samuraisword.com/glossary/index.htm
http://www.japaneseswordsltd.com/glossary.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/glossry.htm
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/japaneseglossary.htm
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/glossary.htm
Polishing:
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/togishi.htm
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/hybridpolish.htm
A short description of how the sori forms is this:
Upon quench,the clay on the spine slows the cooling rate in that area. The edge cools fast enough to miss the pearlite nose, but the spine goes into pearlite. The area where the two meet will form the hamon. As the edge cools quickly it misses the nose and heads toward the Ms point, about 400F.At this point it is super-cooled austenite. The covered spine retains a lot of heat and is several hundred degrees hotter, thus heading into pearlite conversion. You pull the bale out and allow some of the retains spine heat to run toward the edge, this creates the activity and ashi of the hamon.At this point the blade may be curved in reverse. The more expanded spine creating the downward crescent. Re-inserting the blade into the quench causes the edge to drop below the Martensitic start point, and the structure changes at the speed of sound to hard martensite....which takes up more volume than the austenite it converted from. This pushes the edge out laterally, creating the sori, or upward curve. Timing of the in and out periods, along with other parameters, will determine the amount of sori.
Have fun,
Stacy
Great that you are ready for this step. Swords are to knives what heroin is to marijuana. Once you go there there is no return. The pay off is that swords are to knives what Single Malt Scotch is to Bud Light.
There will be fatal failures that will break your heart....and make you more eager to master the beast. Spend an evening doing all sorts of searches on "Japanese sword making", "yakiiri", "Japanese swords", etc.
You will find a lot of good info and links to other good stuff.I listed a good number of sites below.
The HT metallurgy of a Japanese blade is more than just the steel mix. It can be a mono steel,tamahagane, a san-mai, one of several types of multi-layer assemblies, or a modern damascus . The treatment of the blade, once the sunobe is done and the sugata is formed, determines the way the sword will end up. If you want a plain, but good quality sword, do the HT just like a long knife. Ausenitize the blade to the target temp, hold until the carbides and other alloys are properly dissolved, and quench in the proper oil to get a fully martensitic blade. Draw the spine to a lower temper than the edge. Easy enough ( OK, not so easy, but simple enough). To get a Japanese style differentially hardened blade, with or without a hamon, you need to have the blade harden at two different rates. This is controlled by the use of a refractory clay coating on the blade, with a heavier layer on the spine. The spine ends up pearlite ( or a pearlite/ martensite mix) and the edge ends up martensite. The boundary between the two may show the hamon. Using 1060 steel you should be able to achieve the desired effect easily. If you chose to use fast oil for the quench, the hamon will be less bold, but the risk of breakage will be nearly non-existent. The sori will be much less ,too. If you go with a water quench, you will get all that the steel and the clay coating will offer. The trade off is the risk of cracking ...or the dreaded "PING". The only way to learn it is to do it. It takes good nerves, and a willingness to step out into the risky unknown. The way I do the quench is "IN" -2-3, "OUT:"- 2-3,back in -2-3-4-5, pull out and check for straightness-quickly adjust, and back in the bath to cool. I use the same technique for fast oil. I suggest that you do one in oil first, and then try water. Everything is done the same ,otherwise.
Here are a few links to some good info. Jesus Hernandez is great at this. His site has been changed, but all you have to do is click on the "Go to new site" tab and it will connect you.
http://home.comcast.net/~jeshern/makingsteelintro.htm
Here are some other links:
http://inet.museum.kyoto-u.ac.jp/conference02/TatsuoINOUE.html
http://www.ncjsc.org/ncjsc_vis_glossary.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
http://www.barrettcustomknives.com/links
http://www.nihonzashi.com/diy_edge_geometry.aspx
http://www.dfoggknives.com/sword.htm
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=13809&highlight=Cashen&page=8
http://www.waltersorrells.com/blades/ ( great set of DVDs)
Here are some good glossaries:
http://www.samuraisword.com/glossary/index.htm
http://www.japaneseswordsltd.com/glossary.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/glossry.htm
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/japaneseglossary.htm
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/glossary.htm
Polishing:
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/togishi.htm
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/hybridpolish.htm
A short description of how the sori forms is this:
Upon quench,the clay on the spine slows the cooling rate in that area. The edge cools fast enough to miss the pearlite nose, but the spine goes into pearlite. The area where the two meet will form the hamon. As the edge cools quickly it misses the nose and heads toward the Ms point, about 400F.At this point it is super-cooled austenite. The covered spine retains a lot of heat and is several hundred degrees hotter, thus heading into pearlite conversion. You pull the bale out and allow some of the retains spine heat to run toward the edge, this creates the activity and ashi of the hamon.At this point the blade may be curved in reverse. The more expanded spine creating the downward crescent. Re-inserting the blade into the quench causes the edge to drop below the Martensitic start point, and the structure changes at the speed of sound to hard martensite....which takes up more volume than the austenite it converted from. This pushes the edge out laterally, creating the sori, or upward curve. Timing of the in and out periods, along with other parameters, will determine the amount of sori.
Have fun,
Stacy
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2007
- Messages
- 5,060
What type of sword are you looking to make?
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2008
- Messages
- 1,762
Sam give me a call. in the evening would be best. 208 three three six 3 seven Nine 2. Ill see if I can walk you through.