Swordmaker's, some advice needed.

J

john0270

Joined
Feb 9, 2008
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Ok so I am trying my hand a sword making(forging from scrap leaf springs), and am sort of getting a little discouraged in my first few atempts. I am limitiing myself right now to 20-22" blades max, with max 28" oal (so it fits in my oven). I think I have a blade profile ect down needed to withstand heavy blows, and still cut flesh and bone with ease(with a few failures and poor performances). Now the guard area is what's aggravating me. First I have been doing allot of hidden tang knives, and I think that's what was the first mistake I have been making. How does everyone attach a guard? I think I am going to be using mild steel from now on for the gaurds. But on my latest I have been soldering, but I see from some moderate/rough use the solder has cracked, and its just my expoxied/pinned on scales and tight hammer on fit that are holding the brass gaurds in place. Does anyone ever braise mild steel gaurds on with brass/bronze rods? or maybe even a bolster that is pinned/welded on behind the gaurd. I suspect my solder has cracked due to some flex in the area, I think I am going to have to rethink my whole hidden tang thing, and maybe start doing some wrapped handles(of wich I have no experience)?


Anyway I don't know if these links will work but here is what I have so far, the top on in the row of 3 is a gen 2 roman gladius.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/BigJD/sword2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/BigJD/shortsword.jpg

I will be atempting a double edged short sword next. Or maybe I will keep with the single edge untill I get everything right.
 
First of all full tang swords are generally a rather modern invention, it would appear that hidden tangs have been the way to do swords for the last 2000 years. On European swords the fit of the guard to the tang is critical, you cannot have loose fit and hope to fill it in with anything, be it epoxy, resin, solder or braze. It is simply a matter of making the hole in the guard as close to the tang/blade junction as you possibly can and leaving it just a hair undersized ant then tapping it into place. It really needs to hold itself into place before placing the handle or other materials. If this isn't done the guard will loosen and vibrate or rattle in use. Brazing can be done by inexperienced makers for a modern fix but is no the way it was done and is a clunky way to handle things.
 
John, that is some nice work you have there, you did both under the gadius? Kevin is right, with a hidden tang the fit of the guard must be perfect, it is the key. If you have that perfect fit, then there is no need for solder or brazing. Mild steel and other softer metals like gorgeous wrought iron are perfect for guards, as you can get your fit close, where it will slide up the tang and be just short of meeting up with the shoulders then clamp your blade in the vise with leather around the blade to keep from marring it and pound the guard on the rest of the way for the final fit, then your handle and pommel.

On this one you are putting together, I see the forked tang on the end, did you weld in a bolt so as to make a threaded tang? I saw at Ashokan Brian Lyttle gave a demonstration on grinding shortswords (which was very cool), but another inteteresting thing was the construction method he used. He would cut a T shaped slot in the end of the tang, and instead of welding he would grind a bolt (1/4-20 if he was using 1/4 thick material) flat and then just set it into the T shape. It would not require a weld (possible weak point) and it would be just as strong as the welded version.

Keep it up you have a good eye!
 
Sorry I know it is just not cool of me and is way off topic, but Sam after talking with you many time in person I know you are a pretty sharp guy, so I have to ask where you came up with that utter bit of nonsense for your tag line? I have tried and tried to just ignore it, but I find it's like trying to ignore a great danes accident in on a new white carpet. I keep getting this image of George Washington, or Jefferson gleefully hacking off some innocent persons head to put it on the internet, and it just doesn't compute!:confused:
 
Thanks for asking Kevin. Almost didn't want to read what Sam was up to because of that line that wouldn't go away:).

No big deal, Craig
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Sorry I know it is just not cool of me and is way off topic, but Sam after talking with you many time in person I know you are a pretty sharp guy, so I have to ask where you came up with that utter bit of nonsense for your tag line? I have tried and tried to just ignore it, but I find it's like trying to ignore a great danes accident in on a new white carpet. I keep getting this image of George Washington, or Jefferson gleefully hacking off some innocent persons head to put it on the internet, and it just doesn't compute!:confused:
Click to expand...

Never mind... I'll email you what I was going to say.
 
Sorry guys, I didn't mean it in any way like that, I put it up awhile ago when I was feeling a bit stupid in retrospect, and have changed it. Thanks for the heads up Kevin, again I apologise.
 
I am sorry, my post was perhaps a greater distraction than the line, so much so I that I felt obligated to write this:

The hidden tang vs. full tang debate is best summed up with the study of swords. No blade takes more stress in impact or leverage than a sword yet historically they are almost always hidden tang. The closest to full tang one gets is with the Japanese methods but even that is a modified (wider) from of a hidden tang. One could give isolated examples of an odd exception here or there but from the Gladius to the Rapier the hidden tang was it.

Original cross guards were punched and drifted to form a slot and then hammered into place for a very rigid fit. It is interesting to note that even cultures who have advanced techniques in soldering and brazing still didn’t use them for fitting the guard. Many of the fittings surrounding the tsuba on a katana used brazing and soldering type methods in their assembly and adornment but the guard itself was all about precision fitting. Common on Eruopenad blades was a method of recessing the shoulders of the blade up into the guards slightly. I have heard of wooden wedges being used to ajdust a fit that had loosened but it is perhpas specualtion. It was alo possible to pour resin into the small gaps left by the fullers as they passed under the guard.

Instead of me typing it all out if you go to this page and go halfway down you will see a detailed description with photos of how I fit a sword guard:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=13809&highlight=Cashen&page=8

It is part of a monsterous thread I wrote years ago that shows step by step of how I make a pattern welded sword, from the stacking of the steel for the billets to the drop off at the shipper.
 
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It is interesting that the fittings will show evidence of soldering and brazing on them, but it was never used for fitting the guard to the blade itself, that is very cool.

Gotta love that thread Kevin, always worth reading through again everytime.

John, though you are not casting your hilt parts, here is a video of the "How it's Made" episode for Albion swords. It does illustrate very well the fittings and how they are applied as well as some cool simple tools to help with putting things together, might help you to better understand the tightness involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTg0Oc0mQy4
 
Awsome links guys, I have only been recently trying to cast some brass.

Sam, I did both under the gladius and yes I welded a 3/8 fine thread bolt into the slot in the tang.

It's done now, did the final sharpening and some polishing with sandpaper. Tested it out on a few deer bones, seems to hold up alright, and I acomplished my goal of it still cutting paper cleanly.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/BigJD/sword3-1.jpg

Now my other goal is for it to remove the head cleanly of a free hanging deer(200lb pluss deer). I am just testing right now, so everything is pretty crude /expedient still. I think allot of cutting power comes from the length and angle of the tang vs just the blade shape and mass. My paul chen katana removes heads like nothings even there, you just feel a slight tink as it goes through the bone. It did chip however when I atempted to cut a deer in half(oh god what a mess).
 
Intense testing medium John, but I guess as close to reality as you can get for a weapon.

I like the finished look of the sword, very asian islands. Could you post a picture in hand? I'd like to see for a size reference.
 
john0270 said:
It's done now, did the final sharpening and some polishing with sandpaper. Tested it out on a few deer bones, seems to hold up alright, and I acomplished my goal of it still cutting paper cleanly.
Click to expand...

Which bones did you use? I ask because the leg bones are extremely hard, and if your blade survived that, what kind of edge geometry are you using? If it was only the spine/neck or ribs, I've hacked through them & had no damage with an old butcher knife that was only .01" thick at the top of the edge bevel. I.E., they're much less challenging.


john0270 said:
Now my other goal is for it to remove the head cleanly of a free hanging deer(200lb plus deer). ...My paul chen katana removes heads like nothings even there, you just feel a slight tink as it goes through the bone. It did chip however when I atempted to cut a deer in half(oh god what a mess).
Click to expand...

With the fur on, or skinned? I'd think it should be possible; I've used 18" blades to take the head off deer in the 165-180# range (with the hide still on). How bad was the chip on your sword? I usually don't do big cuts through the carcass at least until after it's gutted, to prevent the mess. :) (& save meat) The entrails seem to provide almost no resistance compared to the skin & bones anyway, so I don't worry about 'em.
 
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