Swords are just big knives.

R

Robert Marotz

Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Messages
941
I'm perhaps the worst person in the world to hear some of this stuff from, and I sound like a horrible hypocrite if you remember me from long ago, but...

Swords are magical...but they are magical only in that they inspire us. They symbolize many things for us; honor, power, beauty, justice, phalluses, danger, and romance with all those things.

It's hard not to be pretentious when trying to encourage others to appreciate the same things you do. "What is and is not" is the ever-lingering statement to be made by those who believe they are in-the-know to those who are attracted and romanced with naivete woven throughout. I have been thinking for a long time how to readdress this and promote one or more ideolog(ies) as generally agreeable. Is it in semantics or in organization? What is a sword, all snobbery, pomposity, and arrogance aside? The answer isn't very appealing to those of us with an ideal, with a vision of what swords can be. Then, how do we project our snobbery in a constructive, rather than restrictive, way?

This goes beyond the simple definition of a sword and extends into the realm of makers and their purposes/intentions. Recalling even my own criticisms, some makers are given little serious thought, while others have been placed on pedestals and worshipped (read: needlessly)...in the same vein, we juxtapose the layswordsman and the hardcore enthusiast, we as a community usually have a preference for one. We respect the latter more, do we not? There is then a push for seriousness and practicality and effectiveness, but a mild disdain for reappropriation into modern martial arts.

The sword, for all its similarities and differences across cultures, suffers from some of the same fundamental existential questions that we humans do. What does it mean to be a sword? What does it mean to be a swordsman?

After some time, we might just consider ourselves crazy fools with a big knives hacking at reeds, twigs, or soda bottles under the assumption that respect for a big blade makes us noble somehow.

It could be much more optimistic too. I'm just wondering where things want to go, what people see in themselves when using the blade as a mirror. Do you like bashing an idea of what a sword is supposed to be into people's brains? Do you want people to learn for themselves, as long as they eventually agree with you? I think many of us care more than we like to admit...perhaps because we're afraid that the sword can yet suffer a worse fate than military obsolescence.

So what I'm asking...
...is for you guys who are regulars and of intermediate and advanced knowledge (modesty aside, you probably know who you are) to write a short ramble (not unlike this one) about the value of swords and what it means to pursue them in various ways (artistically, romantically, practically, etc). There are several of you I know who over the last few years have had dominant voices here. Find your idiosyncracies, places where you diverge from the mainstream "sword community", and show us some of the complexity in the matter. I think it may be useful to offer such a composition to people looking to build their knowledge but not knowing what to think about this whole "sword business". I'd really appreciate your help. Feel free to chuck out a draft and update it from time to time.

*R.
 
Lol, it seems you have waxed philisophical Robert. :) Unfortunately I can't give you insight into the deeper meaning of swords and my philosophy of "why." I admire swords for the crafsmanship involved, the link to history, the "coolness factor" and the fact that it's waaay better then collecting stamps. :)
 
Sort of relevant to this thread..there's a great book many of you will know called simply "The Book of the Sword" by Sir Richard F. Burton, a Victorian explorer, adventurer, soldier, linguist etc. etc. he traces the origin of the sword right back to antiquity and examines a lot of the philosophy of swords, as well as practical lessons on using swords and sabres. Very good read, written by a guy who knew how to use a blade (I believe he was also quite a duellist in his time!)
 
I am made of many materials. I am straight, curved, long, short, round, flat, wide, narrow, thick and thin. I am made well and I am made poorly. I serve the rich the poor the good and the evil. I am adorned richly or I am simple and plain. I protect and I destroy I murder and I kill. I am worshipped and I am despised. I build kingdoms and I destroy kingdoms. I’m used to incite terror and dispense justice. Oaths are given on me knights are made with me. Understanding is sought through me. To master me is to forget me. Battles begin when I am drawn and end when I am surrendered. I have lived in all times, I am the history of humanity----I am the Sword.
 
When I saw the title of the thread I was about to charge up my flamethrower! :) As a kungfu guy, the difference between knife and sword is even more marked for me than for some of you here.

Although I put the 'thrower away pretty quickly, it was only after reading your post a couple of times that I think I see what you're getting at. As you can see, I don't make it to this part of BF very often.

I suppose the reason for this is that I've not found much of the information that I'm REALLY looking for. So much emphasis in Bladeforums as a whole (and a big part of its raison d'etre) is about design, constrution, aesthetics and materials of blades and folk often forget simple practicalities.

I like practicalities, certian blades (the "sharpened prybars") seem to me to be designed to satisfy a consumer desire for robustness, indestructability or certainty, which is more of an emotion that needs to be fed than a practical requirement in a tool. Others (the "cool" blades) seem to be designed to provide a constant stream of sensory variety, with different colours, materials, sweeping curves, dynamic angles, grind lines, holes, slots, etchings, textures, names, endorsements and whatever. Its not a case of different strokes for different folks, because so many folk buy loads of different types and often never use them. THe function is rarely improved by these things but the sales often are. Truly innovative, purpose driven, designs (such as the Hideaway knife) are few and far between.

When you consider that we used to slaughter each other with bits of bronze you wonder how necessary it is to have this or that ubersteel, tempered just so, and what perfect length and what perfect balance, sharpened to this or that angle. THis is not to say that I'm not interested in these things, and I am certainly in awe of the skill and passion of the artisans who create these blades, but when you think about the purpose of a sword, knowing how to use it, its limitations and your limitations is much more important.

To me, the man is the sword (not vice versa.) I remember when a friend of my sifu visited and taught us some of his schools broadsword ("Knife") techniques. THey were different from ours and I wondered why we were wrapping the base of our thumbs round what should have been the sharp part of the blade. He said back when these things were actually used, that it would been quite dull, as the quality of chinese swords was generally very poor, which is why the techniques for using them were highly developed, both in issuing and absorbing energy. Contrast with the Japanese, who developed sword creation to a fine art, but whose techniques are very simple and focus on mental attitude and the strength of the sword as much as anything. Ironically, a great example of the "man is the sword" ethos would be Musashi, reputed to have seen off many challengers with a jo (or was it a bokken?)

To me, training with the wrong kind of sword is more valuable than seeking out the perfect weapon. To walk down the street with only the clothes on my back, I am still armed. I cannot be disarmed because the sword is me. THe sword is not the steel, it is the essence. That is the perfect weapon.

HAving said this (but maybe because of it,) in many cultures the sword is the man, or at least it reflected his status. Larger weapons are more difficult to make in terms or aesthetics and durability, so often a sword would be an indication of a certain level of wealth. Longer weapons require more skill to overcome momentum and leverage if heavy or to evade if light (general terms here), so a man was more likely to be literate, educated and have time to learn... thus the sword could be seen as something to aspire to for those not priviledged enough to have been born to them, much like flying a plane in this day and age. A sense of freeing yourself from your material limitaions.

So to object IS just a big knife, but if you focus only on the big knife then you miss the true meaning, the essence. (Sorry if that came across a bit Bruce Lee :barf: )

THat what the sword means to me.
 
"The sword is a tool for battle." -Zaraki Kenpachi, Bleach.

It's a big tool designed for cutting and stabbing people. It's most effective against unarmored people, and dated due to guns. Swords require a decent amount of engineering.

This is the purely rational Elohite perspective, obviously.
 
I enjoy knives and swords. Swords are a tool of beauty and are used to maintain the peace and cut the crap out of one's life and those who want to crap on you. Swords are nice to make those heads roll who deserve to be rolled. In modern times the sword is taking on some new forms. Take a chainsaw for example, it is basically a mechanical powered sword if its used that way. I remember the time at a public campground when a friend was confronted by a bunch of drunken idiots threatening harm. He fired up his saw and wielded it like a sword. They backed down right away, and pulled their camper out of the campground. When the firearm isn't available a chainsaw makes a good sword.
 
The sword is the pinnacle of the bladesmiths art. It provides the largest palette for self expression. It is elevated above the mundane by the fact it requires a skilled practioner to fully appreciate its abilities. It demands a dedication in time, material, and skill to create that raises it above ordinary. A sword is powerful and demands respect from the bladesmith and the swordsman. Swords can inflict serious injury even before they are finished.
 
To me, the man is the sword (not vice versa.) I remember when a friend of my sifu visited and taught us some of his schools broadsword ("Knife") techniques. THey were different from ours and I wondered why we were wrapping the base of our thumbs round what should have been the sharp part of the blade. He said back when these things were actually used, that it would been quite dull, as the quality of chinese swords was generally very poor, which is why the techniques for using them were highly developed, both in issuing and absorbing energy. Contrast with the Japanese, who developed sword creation to a fine art, but whose techniques are very simple and focus on mental attitude and the strength of the sword as much as anything. Ironically, a great example of the "man is the sword" ethos would be Musashi, reputed to have seen off many challengers with a jo (or was it a bokken?)
Click to expand...
In reverse order:
It was a bokken. It's still conserved (I think it's the original one) by the practioners of his style in Japan (possibly in a temple?). I think there should be an article on it: www.sword.shorturl.com
The Japanese did not perfect swordmaking, and many of the surviving pieces in museums were probably meant to be display pieces in the first place - made during a period of general peace OR made for generals/nobles/etc. Folding steel to even out carbon content, spread out any impurities from smelting, etc was used in many cultures - although lasted much longer in Japan (still not sure why - related to smelting technology? ore quality (iron sand is used in quite a few countries)?). Their swords were specialized to meet the practical needs required and probably to follow fashion as well. Lots of romanticism injected into their history (well, just about any country's history really).

The Chinese had similar periods of prosperity and produced a lot of wonderful swords though not so many in the last 100-200 years due to having been invaded by several nations - swordmaking and the other martial skills/arts being banned as one would expect.... (Korea anyone?). Considering the Japanese tradition of forging basically came from China and Korea in the first place....

Also could the sifu in your seminar be talking about differential sharpening (i.e. leaving the edge near the guard duller to make it more durable for blocking and parrying - something performed by ricassos in other sword-construction traditions? = unsharpened forte?)

The man IS the sword. The sword is basically a big knife (a large sharp object) - or is it the other way around? Either way, the usage is different, but the object is generally the same.
 
senoBDEC said:
The Chinese had similar periods of prosperity and produced a lot of wonderful swords though not so many in the last 100-200 years due to having been invaded by several nations - swordmaking and the other martial skills/arts being banned as one would expect.... (Korea anyone?). Considering the Japanese tradition of forging basically came from China and Korea in the first place....
Click to expand...

I had forgotten that the older chinese sabers bear a striking resemblance to japanese swords, indicating likely shared origins. The perils of rambling. :)

senoBDEC said:
Also could the sifu in your seminar be talking about differential sharpening (i.e. leaving the edge near the guard duller to make it more durable for blocking and parrying - something performed by ricassos in other sword-construction traditions? = unsharpened forte?)
Click to expand...

He could have been, possibly without being aware of the term. Regrettably, I didn't ask what he meant or where he heard this, as at the time I was focused on the techniques rather than sword history or technology. It could well have been individual deduction on his part, or received wisdom (and who knows the origin of this?!) What I took from this was the ethic that I am the weapon, and the object is a tool, and that by striving to perfect the weapon, the exact characteristics of the tool become trivial. This is where i feel the mystique or soul of the sword come from, and what sets them apart from being just a "big knife".
 
The Chinese made some fabulous swords, but their preservation is questionable and the deluge of fake antique garbage has largely concealed the gems. As an art form, it has been weakened drastically.

I've been trying to coax a few makers into doing some Chinese style stuff, but there's rarely more than just a passive interest in it, as everyone's after the European and Japanese stuff...everyone's kinda accustomed to the "quality" of conventional modern Chinese wushu things...

I appreciate the replies thus far though. I'd like to encourage others to share some philosophy. Don't be worried about sounding pretentious...I think I've set the standard here :foot:

I have spent a lot of time trying to answer questions, so it is refreshing to spin things around a little bit and ask a question or two. It gives me a little insight into something I think is important...more important than harmonics or edge geometry or heat treating.
 
One aspect of the aesthetic interest in swords that i appreciate, along with the craftsmanship and the skill of those who wield swords in some form of martial art, is the historical significance.

I was fortunate enough to acquire a circa 1780's British Infantry Spadroon, that was used by an ensign at the Battle of Albuera in 1811, during the Peninsular Wars. This junior officer was mortally wounded defending his regiments colours, against charging Polish Uhlan Lancers. Such a sword, with a particular history and context, and belonging to an individual whom I have researched, is more than a relic of history, it was the tool of trade at a time when swords and swordsmanship were still recognised on the battlefield. A bygone era....
 
okay, from what i have understood is that you would like to know what drives people to own, use , or collect swords in thier own words.
these are my words.
to me owning a sword is trivial, however useing one requires skill, dedication, and wisdom. i have owned swords for years, i practice as much as i can. i am passing down the knowledge to my children.
why a person owns a sword, knife, gun or anything else is for thier own reasons. what are my reasons? when you can feel the essence of a weapon you know that it was made for you for a reason, when i touch a sword and feel it's life force touching mine and the life forces interacting, i know that we have a goal, hopefully a peaceful one. i don't go for pretty swords, i go for lifeforce. i know this sounds wierd to alot of people but this is how i have done it. my swords are extensions of myself and i'm the extension of the sword. when we are together we are as one, not two seperate entities, we have a purpose to fulfill. i have to understand the sword and the sword has to understand me for us to work together in harmony, if we are not in understanding we will surely lose.
now i know alot of people think that mine are cool, however they are mine and i don't like people touching them, i have trained with a variety and i still have them.
so i hope this answers your question as to why?
 
is an interesting theme.
For me, a sword is a religious tool. Religion came from thoughts about significant things in our life like life and death. A sword brings life and death, someone's life and other's death. It surely forces swordsman think about life and death then leads to religious thoughts if he could survive some serious swordfight. He may find a ready-made religion, or may create his own.
In modern societies, most of "life and death" are brought by science and industry. Swords have very little to do with. Religions are dead? So are swords, except in swordsmen's soul.
Knives do all non-serious things, practical chores in our lives. If a so-called knife had brought a man his life and others' death, it is a sword for him from my definition. For me, even a genuine katana has not experienced any life ad death for myself. Although I worship it, and do not do any chores with it, it does not stir me up with religious thoughts as I have had no "life and death" experience with it. I may call it an icon. I respect it while I do not really worship the physical entity.
 
Knives.... serious business.

Sorry - I'd say the real serious business is performed by knives, axes, scythes, hammers, etc.... survival in an agriculturally supported society. Much like how some attribute religious themes to swords (the cruciform and Christianity - though the cruciform (bronze) sword pre-dated Christianity quite a bit). However, it was convenient for both the military/nobles/royalty and the religious leaders so eh....

Swords are killing tools. --> Many were and are decorative - such as some copies of two-handed swords made in England, 18th-19th century or thereabouts, as well as the parade swords and hangers (which was also a name for a type of "real" sword) to the military sabers made today). personally I cannot see how one could possibly worship the bringing about of death (to an involuntary victim...).
When blunt they are training tools... for how to kill another man or used for entertainment. For others, they are decoration, for the body, or for a wall/stand.
 
is also a good food for thought as well as sword itself.

We can see many "politically correct" expressions all around. This suggests that we ordinary people do not like raw reality, which stirs us up. A killing tool has a very vivid image of death on it. Then they decorated them to make them politically correct with the appearance IMO.

A religious symbol needs not to be worshipped. Some are awed, some abominated, some taboo-ed. In other words, those what have serious effects onto people have made religious symbols, usually decorated.
 
Man, I read here a lot but don’t generally participate a lot….too much on my plate. But this particular subject has my attention and I have some time so you’ll have to read this and we’ll all weep later.

My perspective is that the sword in this century still has a tremendous ability to make better people out of us *if* we use them and view them the right way. I train Japanese swordsmanship 3 times a week…used to teach it. I make my own blades and test them to destruction and I have mounted several blades by modern makers and a few antiques as well for use in the dojo. So, I’m one of the few folks out there who can not only make a decent sword (I think I can) but I can also cut/train effectively with one and teach others to do so (safely) as well. As one major sword smith told me, there are maybe a handful of people in the world who have my perspective, experiences, and abilities where swords are concerned. Whether this is a good or bad thing it is the truth.

L6Tribute.jpg


My personal training sword. Howard Clark L6 blade in my mount.

My message is that if the modern sword has any reason to exist in this century as more than a curiosity or wall hanger it is as a training tool and weapon…same as it has been for centuries. If we possess a real sword and learn from a qualified teacher how to use it and train with it in a serious manner we learn a tremendous amount about the world, people, combat, distance/timing, and thousands of other things that apply directly to the world outside of the training place. We learn to focus other wise we cut our fingers off…we learn to prioritize and we learn to share with our training partners. We learn about balance and functionality. Not just where swords are concerned but where people and events are concerned as well.

All of the skills we learn about an art (*any* art…) are directly applicable to all other arts. Understanding about how a sword moves, cuts, and balances to a bone deep level (at an unconscious level…ingrained) becomes instantly applicable to all other aspects of life and living. If we train seriously with edged weapons we learn to focus deeply and seriously or *we* get hurt…the consequences of our actions, abilities, and the moment come to visit the user (us) in real time and in very serious ways. We learn about responsibility (there seems to be very little concept of personal responsibility in the modern world…) and about what is serious and what is a game.


SpiritFlash.jpg


Blade by Randal Graham in my hardware and mount.


The greatest, coolest, most relevant thing about swords in this century is about their ability to make us better humans and real people if we invest. If all we are wanting is to play Knight or Samurai or have one because of the cool factor or fantasy then that is fine. But to me they are a tool for forging a better human and they are very serious objects. They should occupy a very serious place in the owners world because, like in days gone by, they can kill or cripple the good *or* the bad people. They can cut away flaws and make better people or they can become an object of destruction all in the flick of a wrist or at the will of a human. Even if the owner of a sword has no desire to train with it or use it as a tool it speaks very highly of him as a human if he shows that sword some respect. If for no other reason for the image that it presents and for the place in history that it retains. A sword is every bit as viable and as real as it has ever been throughout history and people who “play” with them or at using them are not serious people….I try not to spend my time associating with folks who think swords are toys or people who have no concept of what they are capable of.

Swords are not toys and they are not big knives.

My views in a nutshell and I thank Robert for the opportunity to express them and for opening this thread.

Brian
 
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