Tactical folders that are Legal to Carry

[Adamant]

I would assume that a manual action folder (no flipper), with a max 3" blade would not breach most knife carry laws in most states... ... At least thats seems to be the situation in the UK.

Therefore, I would like to ask my fellow forumites this:

Which are the best defensive folders that fit the above description?

Cheers

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History is littered with the wars which everybody knew would never happen. ~Enoch Powell, Speech to the British Conservative Party Conference, 1967~

 

[Adamant]

Oooops,

Forgot to say that my vote is for the Spyderco Gunting- strong lock, and handle that can be used for striking...

Customs wise, the Crawford Mini Wortac and Mini Kasper are very nice, but IMHO are probably not as effective as their full size versions, or even the Gunting...

I very much prefer customs... ...Wonder if anyone could do a custom version of the Spyderco Gunting?

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History is littered with the wars which everybody knew would never happen. ~Enoch Powell, Speech to the British Conservative Party Conference, 1967~

 

[SIFU1A]

fitting your criteria, I too would cast my vote w/the Gunting - i plan to get 1 next month or so - been buying too darned many knives lately, lol

SIFU

 

[Bugs3x]

Hello, Adamant.

In your post, you used the word "flipper." Only a very few knives have flippers. When we use that word, we mean a part of the blade/tang that one can flip with the index finger to open the blade. Sometimes one needs to sort of snap the wrist when "flipping." So, I think it important to be sure whether you meant that sort of flipper, or if you were referring to a thumbstud. I guess I'd also like to know the British law regarding holes in the blade for opening purposes. I am quite the Spyderco fan, and that company makes a number of useful knives with blades in the 3" area.

I kind of wish the General had chimed in here. (He's a fellow Brit for you.)

If you can use blade hole knives, I would recommend the Native in FRN -- tho it has a 3 1/8" blade; the Calypso Jr, in FRN; the Delica. I believe the blade is 3". I'm not familiar with them, but several other Spyderco knives go down in blade length, to just under 2". They are the Dragonfly; the Co-pilot; the Navigator; and, I believe a couple more. I'd suggest you use the STORE link at the top of the page for probably the best info on the knives for sale on the web, and/or The Knife Center of the Internet.
http://www.knifecenter.com

Earlier today, one could purchase the CRKT Apache 2 from Smoky Mountain Knife Center --
http://www.eKnifeworks.com
for $25. It might be too long for you, tho. If SMKW has any CRKT medium Mirages left, they're only $10.

I like the CRKT Lightfoot Urban Shark a lot. It is quite inexpensive, useful for utility, but intended to be functional as a defensive weapon. It's blade is exactly 3".

Am gonna quit -- sorry to be so long-winded. If you post again, and I fail to get back to you in a couple days, please feel free to e-mail me any questions you might have. I only give low-grade spiritual advice, but my knife knowledge is slightly greater.

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Asi es la vida

Bugs

 

[medusaoblongata]

In the US, laws are different in each city and state, though generally under 3" is legal almost everywhere. In the sub 3" range, the Gunting, Harpy, 705, & small Sebenza are some of the best.

I believe that in the UK, all locking folders and fixed blades are illegal to carry, and non-locking folders are limited to 3". If that is the case, I don't think a non-locking folder is a good choice of weapon, and I'd look at non-knife options. Check your laws with some official source. A post in the Knife Laws or European forums might help you out as well.

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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"Is not giving a need? Is not receiving mercy?" - Thus Spoke Zarathustra
"Cutting his throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about." - Lazarus Long
"Knowledge is not made for understanding; it is made for cutting." - Michel Foucault

 

[Adamant]

Hi,

Unfortunately, I am not an expert on the matter. I checked the statutes yesterday, but did not check up on cases interpreting them.

Here's what I know...but before I go on, I must say that the information is NOT WHOLLY RELIABLE, as I only spent a little time on research.

It appears that the position of Brit. law is:

Criminal Justice Act 1988, c.33

s.139(1).....'any person who has an article in which this section apples with him in a public place is guilty of an offence.'

+

such an article is:

s139(2) 'any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife'.

But, a pocketknife is legal ONLY if:

s139(3) 'the cutting edge of its blade (does not exceed) 3 inches'

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However, it is a defence if a knife over 3" is for 'use at work', 'for religious reasons' or 'as part of any national costume'- s139(5)

----

I do not have the 2nd relevant statute next to me, but I think it is called the Offensive Weapons Act 1959 as amended in 1961. It appears to prohibit 2 types of knives:

'flick knives'-which include autos-activated by buttons attached to handle or other devices attached to handle. Mention was also made to such knives having locking devices---IMHO, does not seem to apply to manual thumb studs or opening holes (unless the judge thinks that a thumb stud on the blade is indirectly attached to the handle...it can happen!!!). One can however argue the persuasive authority that the distinction was made clear in the USA between autos and manuals, and that manuals are legal in the USA...

'Gravity knives'- Knives that operated by gravity, or by centrifugal force are prohibited. Balisongs are likely to be affected. If you want to play safe, maybe 'centrifugal' can IMO apply to flippers like Kit Carsons M16, or Darrel Ralph's Mad Max.

Again in my opinion only, if a knife isn't a flick knife or a gravity knife...it shouldn't matter it it has a lock or not. The mere fact of having a lock should not make it an offensive weapon unless coupled with auto or gravity mechanisms. My gerber tool has a knife with a lock...but obviously it is legal!
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Lastly, rather ambiguously, s141(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 says:

'Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in his possessiion for the purposes of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person (an offensive weapon) shall be guilty of an offense'

My interpretation: Appears not to cover a person who owns an automatic knife of <3". Therefore, is carry of an auto legal? Probably not, but I could not find anything in my brief research to say that a 3" auto is illegal! Judges may wish to interpret 'exposes' equivalent to carrying in public....hey the pocket clip's exposed, and we have many English judges here that will bend the rules to achieve their vision of 'justice'

However, be careful because the aforementioned Offensive Weapons Act prohibits import of flick and gravity knives; If you mail order into the UK, you could be 'importing'.
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I must admit that my reseach is inconclusive at best, and so would welcome any corrections or additions to what I said.

I would be able to post the words of the Offensive Weapons Act next week, if you guys want me to...

If a Gunting is legal, I'll go about trying to find a custom maker to redesign it a little and to beef it up(Maybe Titanium frame, frame lock and Talonite Blade)...don't have very good experiences with factory knives so far, especially the pivots...either I'm unlucky or my Ti Bob Lum-Spyderco folder requires 2x the effort to open compared to my Elishewitz.

Now that I've cleared up the law(at least on what it clearly prohibits), my Elishewitz, MOD CQD and all my Bud Nealy fixed blades have to be relegated to the closet

.....too small for home defense, and too big for carry...whatever am I going to do with them? Tactical knives for display purposes only?

I'm longwinded, I know, but a cursory look at a summary of all the weapons statutes seem to suggest that my Blade Rigger V-Gar belt and Titanium stick can ARGUABLY be legal

. I don't see anything (YET) prohibiting expandable batons, pepper sprays, walking canes. However, firearms and crossbows are a definite No.

Thanks for reading!


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History is littered with the wars which everybody knew would never happen. ~Enoch Powell, Speech to the British Conservative Party Conference, 1967~

 

[Adamant]

I found a post by the General, and I quote "I am real interested what people on the ground have had in terms of run ins with the law or others in the UK. Any excuses for having a knife on you work? I only carry when in work/camping. Thus I always have a valid reason. I have never had any problems, and I carry a Spyderco Military to work!
I have heard several 'horror' stories.

1. Farmer in Bangor cutting apple on high steet with small lock knife (3") Police took blade as it had a lock on it. Gentleman advised to walk away or face a criminal conviction.
2. Gentlemans car searched while waiting for family member one evening. Locking Spyderco blade found and taken from car. Private car counts as 'public' place.
3. Gerber multi tool taken from local workman after work in pub (Llandudno Jct) reason was locking knife blade. Officer considered belt nylon sheath 'provocative'. Argument that it was a work tool non valid as work ended hours ago."

Contradicts what I said, but is it the law or is it police practice?

Finally, it is ridiculous enough that in such a dangerous country, one has to carry a 3" blade...take away the lock and one is defenseless. I'll take a harder look at the offensive weapons act next week.

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History is littered with the wars which everybody knew would never happen. ~Enoch Powell, Speech to the British Conservative Party Conference, 1967~

 

[BRAM]

Adamant: I have a whole group of my students in UK who teach and carry GUNTINGs all the time. Some Only carry the DRONE as an impact tool because its NOT a knife...
Its under three inches...its not a gravity knife...
ian, steve & mark are all holding GUNTING seminars soon.
Thomas will be teaching GUNTING in UK this July..Its on the www. spyderco.com forum Go to the MBC forum..its on the thread Gunting in UK...

As for customs..Owen Wood is working on some customs right now..
Meterorite Bolsters, Mammoth Ivory handles, Stainless steel damascus blades...
as well as an ultra thin carbon fiber version..
V.Ford is working on a thick, rough surface Carbon Fiber, titanium version...

There will be other famous makers doing custom GUNTINGs very soon...

 

[Adamant]

Hi Bram,

Thanks for the info, the Gunting is a great design IMHO. However, for those knife nuts or self defense conscious people in the UK, what Kit Lewis told me is very useful.

I quote him:

"However, nothing is ever as simple as "would it be legal to carry?"
The only thing I would stick my neck out and say is legal to carry is a Swiss Army Knife, but just this week someone on the Isle of Wight was prosecuted under the offensive weapons act for having a non-locking knife with a blade 2.5 inches.
He had it open in a pub, which was the problem.
The whole thing focuses on 'reasonable excuse', and it greatly depends on the officer on the scene and what he thinks of you.
If he thinks you are up to no good, he will arrest you, and if not, will probably speed you on your way.
I am always polite and courteous with the police and have never had any problems with any of the things in my pockets. Other people have not been so fortunate.
Police in your local town might be one thing, police in a big city could be another thing altogether.

As far as the locking knife business, faced with the post-Lawrence family (the white Lawrence family remember them?) media storm, a judge ruled that when the law was passed that said it was lawful to have a three inch folding knife, what they really meant was that they meant a non-locking folding knife.
They just didn't actually say that... but that was what was meant right?
And so that is how the law is now applied.
If you talk to officers about it, they talk about a locking knife's being able to be concealed while being readily deployed and locked for stabbing.

What they don't understand is that anyone who has a lawful reason to have any knife on their person, would probably have a good reason not to want a very sharp knife to close over their fingers, anyone who has had a knife do that will not argue with this point.
But sadly, less and less people have even this basic knowledge of handling tools these days."

The full text of all British statutes relevant to carrying knives (andother interesting stuff) can usefully be found at his website, www.knivesuk.co.uk

Juz hate the draconian British laws on knives

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History is littered with the wars which everybody knew would never happen. ~Enoch Powell, Speech to the British Conservative Party Conference, 1967~

 

[JKS]

BRAM, that's great news about the custom Guntings. I enjoy my Gunting but really would like one with custom fit/finish/feel and options.