Tactical Knives, Utility Knives, Killing Knives Rant

Artfully Martial said:
Tactical knives, conversely, have grippy "modern" handle materials (G10 is the most obvious), or high tech synthetics, some use of steel or titanium is pretty normal. They have one hand opening or AO. They have one hand closing. They have locks.
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That would certainly be the usage of the word "tactical" by the marketing guys. But the word "tactical" implies a martial proficiency, and that requires some minimum level of strength to really qualify. It doesn't have to be a "field knife" that can be used as a shovel, hatchet, pry bar, and screwdriver. But it needs to hold together if hit or kicked from the side or spine. Otherwise, it's just an ugly gentleman's knife.
 
I, actually, tend to belive, that "tactical" is more a description of style, then of purpose.
Let's take two fixed blade knives with similar blade profile. But one has blacked blade, handle of some incredibly modern material and kydex sheath with 10000 ways to carry them. Another one is polished, with wooden or stag handle(with shape, similar to first one), packed in leather sheath. Would they be completely different in purpose and ideology? Hardly. Would these be two different fashions? Definitely.
Both "tactical" and "traditional" knives could cut good or bad, be strong or flimsy, one purpose driven or "Jack/Jill (for PC reasons :) ) of all trades." So if we put tactical in line with fashion statement, rather then purpose statements -- things would be much easier...
 
Tactical is just a silly term used by the manufacturers to sell knives. It takes over from 'Ninja' 'SAS' etc. It gives the Mall Ninjas something to ask for!! In my limited knife fighting experience, a big highly polished blade will intimidate more than a black, plastic looking, stripey one.
It great at work being a known knife nut, having to see all these 'tactical' knives, and be expected to say how wonderfull they are!
 
pyton357ru said:
I, actually, tend to belive, that "tactical" is more a description of style, then of purpose.
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You're absolutely right.

Let's look at the Kershaw Bump and Spec Bump: the former, with gaudy anodized titanium frame and satin finished blade, to most people looks like an oversize gent's knife, or production "art knife"; the latter, with black G-10 scales and black DLC blade, looks like an upscale tactical; but they're just about the same knife, other than the colors!

Same with the Kershaw Blur: the new "Tactical Blur" is exactly the same knife, but with blade handles and blade.

Or the Lone Wolf Harseys: "tactical" black, or "civilian" satin/cocobolo, same knife.

I'm sure I could come up with more examples, but I just started my first cuppa... ;)

Obviously, there are knives that are actually designed from the ground up for rugged use (or, at least, to look that way), but for the most part, "tactical" = "black".

Seems stupid to most of us, but it does sell, and a smart company gives their customers what they want!
 
Ebbtide said:
Larry Harley once wrote that there are only 2 kinds of knives:
Working knives & killing knives.
Makes sense to me.
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I dunno, killing could be work, depending on your job description... :D

Seriously, though, I respectfully disagree.

The knife is a very general tool, just a wedge with a handle. It covers a huge range of uses, from micro-scalpels to sharpened prybars. A good knife is capable of a wide range of uses, but not the entire range.

No one knife can do everything well, but conversely, it's a rare knife that can only do one thing well. You might be able to skin a rabbit with a gent's knife, but not baton firewood; you might be able to carve wood with your Loveless skinner, but not pick slivers; and you could use a Ka-Bar to fillet a fish, but try to slice fresh tomatoes, and you might end up with marinara.

But almost any knife can kill. Ask a cop, the most commonly used knife in homicides and assaults is the common kitchen or steak knife — about as far removed from a Busse Terror Monkey Battle Mistress as you can get!

Different knives cover different ranges of use to varying degrees; I really don't think you can draw an arbitrary line somewhere and say, on this side are "working knives." and on that side are "killing knives."
 
Ebbtide said:
Now a knife has to chop, dig and pry.
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This isn't anything new, very old designs, far older than tacticals did all that. Common shop hack knives were designed to chop, and pry, basically be and all in one tool. They predate any of the "tactical" promotion.

Then of course there are large parangs, goloks, etc. which are knives meant to chop, and are stiff enough to pry chips out of wood and are commonly use to dig, as are khukuris and machetes and lots of other larger blades.

There are also lots of japanese knives which are meant to chop, dig, pry, especially for gardening, and have plain and serrated edges for vegetation work as well.

http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&p=52209&cat=2,2120,33277

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=43262&cat=1,44047

http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&p=10504&cat=2,51810

Lee discusses the shop or hack knife in his book on sharpening and notes since it isn't made for precision cutting the edge should be far more obtuse than most knives, as it is more of a utilty tool.

-Cliff
 
i remember when i went to vietnam. i needed a flak vest and the supply sgt. told me to get what i needed out of a metal storage building. it was full of gear. i saw a lot of web belts with knives on them of all diff. types.i got a vest that was not to torn up or bloody and a suspender system with belt that had a case bowie on it. i remember thinking , man am i lucky. after humping all day for a month i traded that bowie to a newbe who was gonna work in a office for a 3 inch blade german made knife that was sharp as a razor. i guess what i am saying is
knife makers and gun makers do not sell knives any more by and large they sell images.they carter to the image of a knife we have in our mind that we will pay for no matter that it is totally useless somtimes and when we use it we will be disappointed so we go back and buy a different kind to fit another image.
i bet not to many people use a knife til it wears out then buys the same knife as a replacement.
i have a image of a big bowie and a big pistol but of the few i have owned i have trouble carrying them very much and found little reason or use for them. but i still buy em.
names mean nothing any more , it is just easier to name em like they do so our image can be satisified.
david
my 2 cents worth and i may be wrong.
 
newshooter04 said:
my 2 cents worth and i may be wrong.
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No, I think you're right, and what's more, it's based on real-world tactical experience, not just what looks cool on the movie screen or magazine ad.

Seems every month or so someone starts a thread asking what knives "real operators" use, only to lose interest when "real operators" (or folks who work directly with them) tell them they carry a Gerber or Leatherman multitool and whatever CRK&T model was on sale at the PX this month. Funny, some people don't like being told that reality doesn't agree with their imaginations! ;)
 
Probably because for every post like that there are a bajillion from makers and users promoting knives because they are "operator" approved. For some lines this is in fact the entire basis for the promotion. These statements are also made much louder and dramatic than the guys who note that they just carry a $20 folder or leatherman.

-Cliff
 
I agree with both of you. An overwhelming number of postings are from guys that live in cubicles,have disposable incomes and fantasize about being in SpecWar. On one of the forums, there's a question regarding bear killing knives. Personally, I suggest large cowbells and tennis shoes but.......When I was in the service, the bigger the knife (actually, ANYTHING that was a straphanger) the less experienced the man.The guys that carried big blades were often the guys that wore their "Profile Suits" to bars. I just assume everyone has a hobby and a lot of folks like to buy eye candy. I left a long posting regarding same on the general discussion board in answer to a posting about fixed blade favorites.
 
NEWSHOOTER wrote
"i bet not to many people use a knife til it wears out then buys the same knife as a replacement."
Forgot to mention that I always like/liked to carry the same brand and make ( especially in the military). The idea being that a proven tool if lost, could be readily replaced and be immediately at home with me. Often, I didn't need to remove/replace the sheath.
 
Because the term tactical is outside of our realistic control (except within our group), it would be best to create a new word that represents specific features or strengths of the knife. The word could be very strictly and specifically defined here, and through the virtue of our using it, we can have a term that people can actually rely on, because, well, it'll actually mean something. When someone says a knife is BF Spec or something, people will know that the lock is tested tough, that it has a grippy handle material, that the blade is of such and such width...you guys decide. I think this is the only realistic way to go about making this sort of standard.

It might even constitute some sort of certifcation.
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I like ArtfullyMartial's view on this, but would the owners put their knives through whatever system of measurement is necessary to substantiate whatever is determined as "BF Spec".

To really narrow it - it might be several classifications I.E
BF Spec 1 (really abusive test verified) Pass/Fail/ Score?
BF Spec 2 (Above average Use test verified) Pass/Fail
BF Spec 3 (Normal testing) Pass/Fail

Could we estabish a thread to enter the criteria for the phases of Tactical Judgement (or I'm sure something better), and nominate 3 or 4 top testers to compile the testing required so that the avg joe could do these tests?

It would be a great resource here I believe.

Good Idea Artful - got my vote.

sp
 
I really don't think you can draw an arbitrary line somewhere and say, on this side are "working knives." and on that side are "killing knives."
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Sure all knives can do all jobs. But when you design for a specific job we break down into the 2 catagories that I mentioned.
For example:
Working knife
IJ1224.gif

Killing knife
sbbwbks.jpg

I think the differences are obvioius.
Now you could make a spoon with the bowie or take out a sentry with the puukko. But wouldn't you want a tool designed for the job?
That is where Harley's distinctions come in.
As for the kitchen knife used most in homocides, I think that may have a bunch to do with what is accessible during the heat of the moment.

cliff, are you saying that gardening tools are tactical?
 
To repeat :

Ebbtide said:
By creating "tactical", a whole new list of responsibilities for the knife have been created. Now a knife has to chop, dig and pry.
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This is false, tactical didn't create this, knives have been doing those things *by* design long before the modern use of the term tactical.

Ironically enough, many tactical knives in general don't actually tend to do those kinds of things well, but a common 12" heavy machete does.

As for overlap, khukuris have an obvious "killing" role, but are also commonly used as gardening and wood working tools.

Most actual "killing knives" are common household kitchen knives.

Tactical in general, doesn't promote specific use much any more, the main promotion now is on actual user, as in XXX knives are used by HSO.

There are also lots of tacticals which actually cut well, R.J. Martin's work for example isn't the prybar type class of tactical.

-Cliff
 
As I said, it was In My No So Humble Opinion.
If it doesn't agree with you're opinion, cliff, that's fine.
I was talking about the tactical knife, as described by the posters before me. You are talking about kukris, machetes, bolos and parangs.
Oh, and gardening tools.
I've already addressed the kitchen knife.

I do completely agree with this statement by cliff:
Tactical in general, doesn't promote specific use much any more, the main promotion now is on actual user, as in XXX knives are used by HSO.
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Especially with the words "any more".
And the statement above goes back to what I said about creating a niche in the market place. Good marketers adapt to the market as well as guide the market's desires.
 
I don't know where I stand on this issue.

I like knives that are simultaneously great at cutting, chopping, digging, and prying and I like fighting knives that sacrifice some of those attributes for agility (though I spend the money on the sharpened maul-type knives). I like knives that will hold up to tasks that will cripple the person holding the knife and yet I completely understand why someone might want a knife that quickly opens and closes, takes up very little space, and needs little more than some nuzzling with a ceramic hone for its maintenance. They're all good; just some of the advertizing is irksome.
 
If I recall correctly, Greg walker once said that the best tactical knife was the one in your hand when you needed it.
 
Ebbtide said:
Sure all knives can do all jobs. But when you design for a specific job we break down into the 2 catagories that I mentioned.
For example:
Working knife
IJ1224.gif

Killing knife
sbbwbks.jpg

I think the differences are obvioius.
Now you could make a spoon with the bowie or take out a sentry with the puukko. But wouldn't you want a tool designed for the job?
Click to expand...
OK, what about the vast number of knives in between those two extremes? Where, within that wide spectrum, do you draw that line that says, on this side are working knives, and on that side are killing knives?
 
OK, what about the vast number of knives in between those two extremes? Where, within that wide spectrum, do you draw that line that says, on this side are working knives, and on that side are killing knives?
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The ones in the middle (that are a compromise between the 2 main groups) are the tacticals.
:D
 
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