TACTICAL ? Run or Fight!

[cerulean]

I also applaud the great posts in this thread, especially Old Knife Guy's.

You should certainly run away or hand over your money, if it's possible and there's a chance it will prevent your getting killed. Plus, a little forethought will allow you to avoid going to places where such a thing might happen.

Yes, carrying a small knife in your pocket doesn't turn you into a ninja. But if you're in a genuine life-threatening situation, why wouldn't you try to use your knife to save yourself?

Golok said

A less than 4 inch blade (unless it is in the hands of an expert) will do nothing to improve the situation for the potential victim.

Knives are tools. Their main funtion is to improve the quality of life; not to take it. Yet, you have to admit that statements like the above are totally wrong. A blade 4 inches or under can be an extrodinarily dangerous weapon, even in the hands of someone who has no "training" whatsoever.

Jim March's bear analogy is very insightful and it reminded me of the "Bear Fight" article in the December 2000 Knives Illustrated. Want proof that a 4 inch folding blade can do substantially more than "nothing" to improve the situation of the victim? I can't think of a better example.

The article talks about a 69 year old hunter who killed a 750 pound Alaskan Brown Bear with just a Buck 110. It didn't mention if the guy was an expert at bear fighting, but I assume he had no edged weapon training and was just running on instinct.

 

[Jim March]

Ya, I'd forgotten about that incident. He basically sawed his way through it's throat.

Something important about "chase-offs": I recently heard about a case in another state where a mugger confronted a guy at 8ft range with a switchblade. The guy being mugged hauled out a shiny, stainless NINE inch blade Cold Steel Magnum Tanto.

You'd expect the mugger to run, right? And that's what will *usually* happen. But this fool attempted to gut-stab the guy holding the shortsword. The "victim" jumped clear while chopping at the hand holding the switchblade, opened the SOB's forearm from elbow to wrist. Only THEN did the moron start thinking he'd maybe bitten off more than he could chew, and ran like a rabbit.

Where we're going with this is, a chase-off will not happen unless you are absolutely determined to kill if necessary. It's the knife PLUS that genuine determination that causes a bloodless result. You pull it out and act all scared and your hand shakes...they're gonna try you. Even without that, it ain't a sure bet.

It's kind of a "Zen thing"...he who is willing to kill probably won't have to.

But then again, a big honkin' piece of steel don't hurt none

. And if it adds to your self confidence which in turn drives some fool off, it's worth every penny.

I carry a Sifu daily. It's never been drawn in anger and I hope it never will be, but if it is...it's the best combat folder available. See also: http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/blades.html

Jim

 

[Smoke]

Jim, you're a tank.

Run or fight? I think you may have to run AND fight. In no particular order and perhaps more than once.

 

[golok]

Dear Jim,

Thanks for the short insightful piece.

Most of us non-close combat fighters who-sit-on-the-couch-watching TV type are thankful we don't experience these scary circumstances at all.

Those of you who have actually had a face-off with the desperados of the animal kind or the human types are lucky in a way that you live to tell the tales.

There are indeed many cowards out there who turn and run when they are not sure if they would like to risk it all for just pocket-change. We all hope there are more cowardly muggers around than there are insane ones who will come at you with stones, shoes, pieces of wood or even an aluminium can.



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Make Love your strongest weapon. Compassion your shield and forgiveness your armour.

 

[golok]

Yes, Owen, you are quite right about the 4inch blade. I was merely illustrating my point but I see yours quite clearly.

Actually, a well trained person can kill another in about 42 ways without any weapons but that's another story.

Most murders and unpremeditated killings are carried out with screw-drivers and kitchen knives or anything sharp that comes in handy.

The important thing, I guess, is for one party involved to stay calm or shut up, instead of inflaming the situation. Most fights occur when two or more guys try to outshout each other. If one of them happens to carry a knife and he takes it out in anger, the knife-less person can be history and the other guy's future is history, too.



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Make Love your strongest weapon. Compassion your shield and forgiveness your armour.

 

[Jim March]

Golok, you should realize that I'm not trying to cast myself as any sort of hero. I'm barely "trained" at all, and I consider a knife a poor relation to what's really needed on "mean streets": a handgun.

In 31 states of the US (out of 50 total), it's possible to go through a background check and modest training and get a permit to carry a concealed, loaded handgun on the street. There are millions of such permitholders running around, and in the areas where they're common, muggers are rare. I'm one of the people trying to put such a system in place in California, I'm the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit seeking to overturn the near-total ban on such permits in this state. I own four handguns, but after taking such a public position I can't risk even the modest penalties for illegal street carry so they get left at home.

For now.

But I will win in court.

Jim
Equal Rights for CCW Home Page http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw

 

[Jim March]

Golok, regarding your last post, you're exactly right on both counts. Most criminal "stabbings" involve cheap knives, kitchen knives or screwdrivers, chisels or other strange objects.

AND you cannot possibly hope to control a situation unless you control yourself. Getting into a shouting match in public with *anybody* is simply insane. When I faced four lunatics that were screaming and yelling and waving hammers because they wanted to continue killing a guy behind me (who I'd gotten away from them), I didn't say anything. I put my hand on the pommel of a large folder in a sheath at my belt. And just stood there.

They backed down. Well, more correctly, they didn't advance (they were about 20ft away) and after a while, some bystanders calmed them down and they eventually wandered off. Good enough

. The cops caught 'em, too.

Anyways...it sounds like I'm bragging but the fact is I was untrained then and mostly bluffing. Thank God it worked

.

Jim

 

[golok]

Yes Jim, I understand that the handgun issue is a big as well as a touchy one in your country.

In my country, there are no excuses. If you are caught with one and you don't have a gun licence, you go straight to the gallows.

One unlawful bullet earns a person 3 years jail, if I am not mistaken. So if you are found with a boxful of these lead nasties, you better pray longevity is part of your DNA.

If you are unable to explain that long blade you are carrying, that's another couple of hours with the authorities. And our local blades are dangerously lengthy ones.

Of course, there are some short ones too and these too are quite lethal.

In reality, as in any country, there are handguns floating around. The outlaws have them but then they gamble with their lives all the time and they don't care much for ours too.



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Make Love your strongest weapon. Compassion your shield and forgiveness your armour.

 

[Jim March]

Golok, what's really going on is that a criminal gets more economic gain out of his gun than the honest citizen gets out of his. "Economics" is simply a way of describing human motivation.)

What that means is that when you make guns harder to get, you disarm the honest before the crooks.

You also create a situation where the government rapidly turns into another bunch of crooks but that's a different issue.

In terms of US politics, Al Gore is the anti-gun-carry Presidential candidate, and Bush is the pro-carry guy. Most of the states with legal carry voted Bush, the ones without mostly voted Gore. Gore's home state of Tennessee is a legal-carry state, and they didn't support Gore...which is a serious and rare insult.

The people willing to go through licensing, training and background checks aren't the people you have to worry about. In the pro-carry states, they often commit less crime than the police

.

Jim

 

[samo]

Fuah!!

Diam-diam ubi, tapi berisi!! Good commentary my dear Golok!! Nanti bila you dah dapat your CRKT KFF, cepat-cepat lari man!!

I guess most of us agree with your opinion!! Cukup matang!!

and Bernas too!!

You deserve that pearl inlaid Spyderco Military-laaaa!!

Sam

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have spydies
will travel...
AKTI Member #A001148

 

[Old Knife Guy]

Per Jim March: (quote) "I own four handguns"
Merciful heavens, man! You're just about out! Are you wasting your money on food again! My WIFE has more than that on her side of the bed, and she HATES guns!
Jim, I thought I was giving sage advice to young guys who might get themselves hurt by thinking a black knife makes them invulnerable. I had no idea that fellow knuts were under a firearms embargo!
Can I help? Shall I air-lift in linotype cast bullets...?--OKG

 

[Jim March]

LOL! Almost out...

The good news is I have two representative specimens of the type of gun I like that California is in the process of banning. I kinda like .22Mag minirevolvers. Everything else I like (SA and DA wheelguns) are in no *immediate* danger (but trust me, I'm aware of long-term implications).

As to what I'm doing about it...I have a final meeting with my lawyer on Monday to create an "amended complaint" which is a fancy way of saying "make my current pleading more professional". My first one was OK for an "amateur effort", you can see it here: http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/pleadag.html

Jim

 

[jeegeet]

One should first THINK and then decide whether to run or fight or maybe just stand up.

I have to say that I don't like those "hand your money and run by default" philosophies.
I disagree that it is about "Is my wallet more important than my life?" It is about much more than a wallet.

Kris

 

[Gwinnydapooh]

Hey, OKG--I'm not proud. If you've got any .45 acp slugs, I'll take 'em!

I'm a little split on this. Like Jim, we all have to fit our philosophy to our own strengths and weaknesses. I'm fairly strong, but not very quick (I trained for quickness for years and just never developed much.) On the other hand, I can't run very fast or very far. I have gotten as high as 6 miles per day, but I've never run 40 meters in less than 6 seconds.
My wife is much the same but even slower without the advantage of strength or intimidating size.

Therefore, if I can run, I will. BUT it's not hard to see that there may be situations in my future when running will be more dangerous than fighting. And if my wife is with me, they don't have to catch me--just her.

The plan is that she runs immediately and looks for a place with people or a phone, preferably a place where she can lock herself inside. If I think we can both escape, I will run too. If I don't, then I stay and fight. Even then, I run if decide that the attacker has had enough not to follow or if I think he's too injured to catch me. The hope is that help is on the way.

I'm not a dreamer. I know I'm not a knife fighter and I know help will probably not get there in time. But this gives me the best possible chance and either way, my wife gets away most of the time. With multiple assailants, I probably lose even that, but there you go.

I've always told my wife that if she's alone and is mugged with a gun, give what you can and hope for the best. If an unarmed man attacks her (it happens to women around here) she should go for one or two cuts and then take off. My logic is that if she stays, she has little chance of being able to kill him, but if he's bleeding and she's running and making noise, that's three reasons to let it go and look for somebody else.

Oh, and we both DO carry "tactical" knives--plastic-handled Spydies. They're more useful for day-to-day chores than the average pocketknife--light, sharp, one-hand openers, handy pocket clips....they pay for themselves without ever having been used as weapons.

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"It is not criminals who enter schools and shoot children . . ."
--Ann Pearston, British gun control apologist and Moron

 

[Ironhorse]

OKG,
Reading your first post, sounded just like what I told my sons a few years ago. You and I sound an awful lot alike. You were probably the one who threw that ash tray though the plate glass window in that BIG brawl in Dumas, Tx.in 79, that I did 30 days for. Sure was fun!! I know I passed you on the road Bro! Keep it in the wind

Ironhorse

 

[Onehandclapping]

Hello all,

jeegeet has the correct thinking -- the effect of a mugging goes far beyond what is taken from you in the way on money and wrist watches. One attempt was made on my long ago. I didn't lose anything and I learned something we should all keep in mind -- someone who decides to become a mugger does so because they can't think of any easier way to get money. They are lazy people who want to get as much money as they can for the least amount of work. As soon as you show such a person you are willing to make them work VERY HARD to get you money and jewelry, they give up and look for an easier target. These thieves don't mug people at random. They look over their target as carefully as any coyote does, asking themselves "how much energy do have to use to eat this rabbit?" If the rabbit turns into a hard meal to get, they give up. I won't bore you with details, but long ago (about 1979) when two young men asked me for my wallet, and I dropped the first one quickly, the second one couldn't get away fast enough.

Now, with the passing of years, I'm handicapped, and couldn't run if my life depended on it. I can barely walk with a platform cane. I don't have much of an option if confronted by a mugger -- I will go straight for my pistol, which I carry whenever going into a big city (legally, of course). I also carry knives for times when a gun is too much. I'm able to hold a knife well, and can move it in a way which tells anyone watching I know how to hurt them with it. I know the first mugger who asks for my wallet, expecting me to start crying and begging them not to hurt me, will get a surprise. I also know the odds are in my favor they will leave me alone, and go looking for an easier person to steal from.

I think it is irresponsible for ANYONE not to be armed in some way when out in public. I feel it is an important part of being a citizen to be able to come to the aid of a fellow citizen. If I hear someone yelling for help, I move as fast as I can to help them. I think everyone should help others when called, and they should have the ability to help them -- by carrying the tools required. I always carry a cell phone, the biggest knife I can (Spyderco Civilian, Gerber Covert, any one of ten automatic Benchmades, and a whole lot of other knives), and an ASP baton at the least, and a pistol if I can do so legally.

I've never been to Malaysia. Seeing where it is on a map, I'm sure it's a very beautiful place. But I'm also sure it has a very different society than the US. It isn't fair to try and place Malaysian rules for conduct on Americans. This sounds like when the US is compared to the Japanese in terms of crime and violence. Not fair by a long shot. Americans are vast mixture of people from all over the world, not a society of people who are all from the same culture and share the same history. The rules are different here, and we must all know them and live our lives in a way that protects our selves, our families and others in our society.

 

[anthony cheeseboro]

These kinds of posts are always interesting. It amazes me how much a group of people who are largely suburban or rural think about muggings and confrontations. I'm not saying that concern is not legitimate, I just wonder how much is necessary and how much is bluster. Realistically, I think that if a person is mugged, it is reasonable that lots of emotions can go through one's mind ranging from fear to extreme anger. The thing that no one ever seems to deal with is that if one is confronted, and has to fight, you might be whipped or killed no matter how tough you are or how well armed you are. This is doubly true if one is ambushed by multiple armed attackers. Graveyards are full of tough, brave men. Even police officers, who are obviously well trained and armed get killed or beaten. I have always said that it is smartest to watch where you go and watch with whom you associate. There are very few scumbags that I want to go to jail for and I would suggest that the smartest thing anybody can do is to avoid places where there is trouble whether one is armed or not.

 

[Old Knife Guy]

To Ironhorse: Wait a minute...Texas, 1979. Big waitress, and I mean big. Lost a finger on her left hand, called all of the Hogley-Furgeson guys 'Shug,' like the first syllable of 'sugar.' Some clown started singing really badly by the pool table, and playing the damn song over and over again on the juke box. Some one lit a little Black Cat fire-cracker and scared some civilian's chick. Fisticuffs ensued, the ash tray went sailing. Yeah, that was me. You did a month, heh? Sorry, blood, I was on vacation...OKG

 

[Jim March]

While most muggers will run at the first sign of resistence, there's a few crazies that think they actually have a "right" to be predators and are offended at the sight of a weapon. They're rare, but they're out there. You don't draw without the will to use it, even though you know you *probably* won't have to. DO NOT BLUFF

.

Multiple assailants are one of the top reasons I want a carry permit. I've faced four at once, it's *ugly* (and so were they).

------

Just as I finished reading this thread, I jumped to EMail and found the following had just come in...it's sort of a "whole 'nuther perspective" on the "morality of combat" question:

From Bob, rethornton@juno.com

I saw this in the Jan. 2001 issue of "GUNS & AMMO". It's the last paragraph in "Cooper's Corner" on the back page. I think the different prospectives between the expectations of the interviewer, and the answers of the Veteran are an excellent example of how far those who enjoy Freedom are from those who've risked their lives for it!

I feel it is worth repeating:

"...It seems that a Finnish Veteran of the Russian War was being interviewed about his experiences of those days."

Q: "You saw a lot of infantry action?"

A: "Much."

Q: "Did you ever engage in a fire fight?"

A: "Often."

Q: "Did you ever have occasion to shoot at a human being?"

A: "Yes, several times."

Q: "Did you find this difficult?" (Ed. Note from Jim: from a liberal US perspective, this question is about the emotional difficulty of killing...)

A: "Yes. You see, they tended to duck, to get behind cover, and to run in zigzag."

To this I can only add that my M-39 Finnish Mosin-Nagant will put 5 rounds into a 6" bull at 200 yds. with open sights. (Actually, about 2-1/2 minutes of angle.) I suspect from the old Veteran's attitude, that even ducking for cover, and running zigzag, was no guarantee for the Communists in his sights!

Semper Fi
Bob

(To which Jim adds:

)

 

[golok]

When I was in my teens, a friend of mine brought along a tall guy for a fishing trip.

That unsmiling acquaintance of his had the coldest and meanest eyes I have ever come across. I remember at that time, it gave me the shivers just looking at him. At that time, I was barely into my teenage years.

Later I asked my friend who was that guy. I was told that that stranger was a fighter for one of the Triads. To put it simply, here was a guy who was trained or had trained himself to kill and maim - strictly for professional reasons.

The stranger had the eyes of a "shishogen" - Eyes That Had Seen A Thousand Deaths.

Can you imagine yourself confronting a guy like that on a lonely street on a cold, windy night? And he wants more than just breakfast money. Say, you have a big knife with that extra edge.

It probably won't do you any good but at that time you don't realise it. Any attempt at that good ole stick-him-in-the-belly trick is going to backfire in about 2 seconds.

In my country it's illegal to carry guns, I suppose one can fish out the wallet and throw that at such a stranger and run like Maurice Green and beat his record too!

I know that sounds like a cowardly way out but at least cowards can return home and have dinner with the family.

I accept the views that in America the situation is different in some places. I guess when one crosses the great cultural divide to the other side of the ocean, things are different. If I am an American, I reckon my self-preservation instincts would also be honed to fit the occasion and situation.