tactical, shmactical

Corduroy,

Your reference to muscle memory tells me that you are more than passingly familiar with current training trends and techniques. You should also know that simpler is better, and the less we have to keep focused under stress, the better.

This is why I rely on the Military for any/all purposes I might need a blade for. If I have to use it for defense, the kimchi has gotten about as deep as it is going to get, and the last thing I need is a mental short while trying to recall which knife is where, and which one should I go for?

Sure, another, small dedicated "fighting knife" wouldn't add anything to my load. I actually do carry a second knife, a Spyderco Pro-Venator. But it is in my upper right jumpsuit pocket. It and the .38 revolver are not quickly accessible. They are there for absolute, last-ditch worst-case sitiuations. KISS is the rule for primary weapons and gear, and I have used the Military on several occasions to cut rope or other material that was blocking or impeding my ingress to an area. That is it's primary purpose. But I feel reasonably certain that if I have to cut someone with it, they will feel it and bleed just as they would if I used a dedicated, purpose-built "fighting knife".

Steve
 
Corduroy writes...
But from a cost/benefit standpoint, what's the harm in tucking a defensive knife in your pocket just-in-case?
Click to expand...

Because if its a folder and its in your pocket, you've just defeated the rationale for carrying it in the first place. Surely accessibility is the *primary* consideration in a knife carried for defensive purposes. To me that screams "fixed blade" and a carry in such a way as to be instantly accessible, either on my belt (and not in a pouch), or under a jacket with a shoulder rig, etc. But the belt carry simply won't do in my daily white collar world, and a shoulder rigged fixed blade is highly illegal in most jurisdictions exposing the wearer to potentially more trouble than the knife is likely to get him or her out of.

Now if I'm going to carry a folder in my pocket or clipped to my waist band (which I do always), then it is going to be the knife at hand when I need one for any situation, utility or defense. Yes it is far from optimum for defense primarily because it is not a fixed blade, but given all the tradeoffs involved, it is probably my best option.
 
I agree that when a fixed-blade is an option, it's always preferable to a folder. But I also agree with your assessment that it's rarely an option for most folks on the job or out in public.

Don't sell folders short, though. Sal Glesser gets his Military open and in-your-face faster than I've ever seen a fixed-blade deployed - and I used to work with two gents who built rapid-access Kydex rigs. I can get a blade-hole folder into action pretty quickly, too, but his technique showed me some important ways to improve. Now comes practice - and that is the key.

I've used an AFCK for years in a utility role, and none of that taught me rapid draw-to-strike techniques. Muscle memory? Yeah, my muscles know how to use it for utility. Rapid deployment and immediate striking takes its own set of motor patterns that require their own practice. I'm not advocating tucking a Civilian in your pocket and forgetting about it - any weapon is only as good as its user. But I don't feel that years of using a utility knife prepare me for a defensive situation. I don't train in "knife fighting" because I don't believe in knife fights - but I do practice getting that folder in my front pocket out and slashing as fast as possible. Until it becomes acceptable for me to carry my Alley Kat on my hip or until I get settled and acquire a pistol permit, that's all I have to work with.

-Drew
 
Since starting this thread and then reading through the ensuing discussion, it has become clear to me that the word "tactical" is indeed being used as a euphemism for more evocative language like "person cutter," "weapon," "self-defense," and the like--not in the standard, dictionary sense.

It seems then that we're in the same camp as those who say "liquidate" instead of "mass murder," "sanitation engineer" instead of "garbage man," "public school" instead of "socialism/mass cultural engineering, American style," "senior citizen" instead of "old person," etc.

Why can't we call things what they are? Why do we have to use Orwellian language for things anytime we think an eyebrow might rise?

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I don't want my children fed or clothed by the state, but I would prefer THAT to their being educated by the state.

[This message has been edited by Uncle Bill (edited 12 September 1999).]
 
I'll call a folding knife "defensive" if it's designed for self defense. If it's designed for fighting, I'll call it a "folding fighter" (while laughing at the absurdity of such a thing). I'm just following the perceived consensus and using "tactical" to denote the odd defense/utility mix.

-Drew
 
My favorite euphemisms have to do with the naming of wars: "Operation Restore Hope" is the best. Of course, euphemisms are used because they benefit certain people. The term "tactical" is certainly a euphemism; it's vaguely threatening and military, but no one is sure what it means. In this case, the euphemism benefits both knife customers and makers.

Customers may want to show their buddies what they think is a dangerous military knife. A customer may think he's cool because he's "armed" with a tactical knife, although he uses it only for mundane tasks. Makers take advantage of this fascination with weapons, yet they can't be too forthright and risk public scorn or eventual illegality. I don't think you'll see a Benchmade Person Cutter on the market for too long; or a Spyderco Honor Student Stabber, or a Kershaw Speed-Safe Rival Hispanic Gang Member Torso Wounder. Of course, knives have been used (and probably even specifically bought) for these exact purposes, but customers and lawmakers would be equally offended by such names.
 
Lynn,

I'm a long-time school teacher who has seen first-hand how today's
subtle, savvy marketing can affect teen-age boys. For these kids, and
for many of their older brothers in college, image and style are
incredibly important, almost everything. Style is definitely more
important than reality, sizzle more important than steak.

It's been a real eye-opener to overhear 15-year old boys by their
lockers looking at Tactical Knives magazine.

I don't want to put a negative spin on any knife at all. What I do want
to fight against is anything that makes "dangerous-looking" and "baaaad"
seem attractive to kids.

Once I took a cooooooool kid out to a range and showed him up close what
buckshot will do to a watermellon. It was amazing. His eyes got BIG. All
the locker room bluster wasn't even remotely connected to reality. Truth
be told, he almost sh** his pants.

I may not be making much sense here. Please understand that I support
all good craftsmen and believe knives for self-defense and war will
always be needed and that it is an honorable thing to make them well.

>From what I've heard your knives are extremely well-made. My hat is off
to you for your skill and artistry. My your product serve its intended
purpose and serve it well.

When my father climbed the hills of Guadalcanal I doubt there were any
tactical knives mags in kids lockers.

What am I afraid of? I'm afraid of the break-down among kids of a good
grip on the difference between reality and fantasy. Virtual reality can
be a fearful thing indeed when it blurs the distinction between real war
and video games . . . etc. etc.

Bill Bryant

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I don't want my children fed or clothed by the state, but I would prefer THAT to their being educated by the state.
 
The last thing on earth I want to do is damage anyone's career, unless it's the career of the marketing types who prey on kids. Believe me, they're out there, and believe me, they couldn't care less about the damage they do to kids, provided there's money in it.

I'll close this thread if I can figure out how--out of respect for your wishes, not out of sympathy for the marketing hype that today surrounds the word "tactical."

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I don't want my children fed or clothed by the state, but I would prefer THAT to their being educated by the state.
 
It seems unreasonable to want to shut down the thread, at least with the objection that it may harm one's business and with the implied suggestion that no criticism is acceptable. If the discussion can't be held in this forum, maybe another category is more suitable, then it can't be discussed anywhere as everyone here has an interest in knives, and all are potential customers. I don't think that you were singled out, rather it seems that you offered to present another viewpoint and you've become involved in the discussion.

 
I've changed my mind about closing this thread, for the following reasons:

1. Mr. Griffith, your knives are probably good enough to continue being purchased by anyone who really needs them, regardless of what they are called. If this thread damages the usefulness of the WORD "tactical" it does nothing to damage the usefulness of any truly useful knife.

2. My beef isn't with "tactical" knives themselves (or with those who make and use them legitimately) but with marketing hype, euphemisms, and the dangers of doing the wrong kind of style/image (what would 007-Arnold-Bruce-Van Dam do/wear/carry) posturing near impressionable youth in an age of war-as-fantasy virtual reality.

3. I think it's the WORD that should be replaced, not the knives. The knives, marketed to adults with a legitimate reason for owning them, should be labeled COMBAT or FIGHTING or MILITARY/UTILITY or CONCEALED/SELF-DEFENSE or some such specific, non-euphemism.

4. No offense, Lynn, but I think you should have more confidence in your product than to be worried about the ravings of a semantics-obsessed school teacher.
smile.gif


(To tell you the truth, I bet we could sit down around the camp fire (can you smell the Elk steaks?) and get along enthusiastically.)

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I don't want my children fed or clothed by the state, but I would prefer THAT to their being educated by the state.
 
Uncle Bill, thanks for not closing this thread. Mr Griffin, I dont have a thing against anyone using the word "Tactical" I myself have just chosen to drop it from my knives and use other terms. Those who choose to use the word are OK in my book, and when I speak of their knives I will use the word Tactical. Heck, Tactical Knives is my favorite magazine! (Course having 2 articles and a sidebar on my stuff in the next issue dont hurt any!)
smile.gif
I am just tired of the word personally and am going to use the word "fighting", "Combat", etc to describe my designs. Right now 90% of my output is in that catagory. I am a bit dumbfounded that you would ask Uncle Bill to close the thread though, I dont think this thread will hurt the makers of "Tactical Knives" whatsoever, and may even help by making them taboo or macho or whatever. Just my couple cents worth, and I like Bills idea of Elk on a stick over a slow fire, I even have a few Elk steaks left over from last year, and its fat cow, not poor bull!

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www.simonichknives.com
 
Personally I would rather have the kids reading tactical knife magazines as some Larry Flynt production. As a matter of fact, I wished more skills were taught along the lines of weaponry, self-defense and related subjects.

I was 'born' with a knife in my hand and hunting alone at the age of 8 with a .410 shotgun. I've never comitted a crime, never even had a speeding ticket, and was always taught to respect the things that could harm or kill others AND my elders.

Break down in society hasn't come at the hands of tactical knife magazines, guns, or anything else of the like. Breakdown has come about due to the lack of discipline and respect.

If we're going to attempt to stay politically correct then I suggest all knife people (not just tactical makers) get out of the business because once the tactical guys go it's a matter of time before the rest of the crowd is demonized.

My 2 cents and i usually try to avoid political debates, but couldn't pass this one up - Jeff

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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com

 
But I don't think that anyone is asking anyone else to be politically correct, in fact I think it's the opposite - call a fighting knife a fighting knife as 'tactical' seems to be the politically correct term.
 
Jeff,

I hear where you're coming from.

I think this is how I see it. I'd rather these boys be out whittling shelter poles and skinning squirrels with their fathers than clumping together after school around "macho" equipment magazines. Today's boys need dads and camping trips and dads and hunting and dads and wilderness hikes and dads and hard work with a hammer and . . . dads. Too many of them spend far more time with their fantasy equipment magazines than with any real, dangerous tool . . . or any real, respect-worthy father.

My beef with the word "tactical" is that it can so easily conjure the wrong things. Skinny, fatherless urban boys far from nature are my concern, not South Dakota ranch sons who couldn't care less about a knife's name so long as it will cut.

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I don't want my children fed or clothed by the state, but I would prefer THAT to their being educated by the state.
 
I will sit around a campfire with no man, whose words I can not trust.
Lynn, just exactly what are you implying here? That those who disagree with you can't be trusted? Am I the one whose company you would avoid because of "words you can't trust"? Sure sounds that way since I'm the one who first mentioned campfires.

All this over an honest discussion of the term "tactical"?



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I don't want my children fed or clothed by the state, but I would prefer THAT to their being educated by the state.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Potential use is a different issue than what a reasonable definition for 'tactical' is. Non-civilian seems to be an attribute of 'tactical', especially when considered in the context of going into harm's way. Even the dictionary notes that 'tactical' is of or relating to combat tactics, which seems to be the connotation that is marketed, or relating to tactics as in smaller actions to chieve a larger means, which doesn't seem to apply to knives. An item not noted in the example, which seems to be s hunter/utility at first glance, but a similar design is also used in a Finnish military/survival knife, is how the knive is designed to carried. If the knife is not designed as a fighting/combat knife then 'tactical style' might be more descriptive.
 
Seems one of our contributors removed all his posts.

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I don't want my children fed or clothed by the state, but I would prefer THAT to their being educated by the state.
 
"Tactical = knives that are going to be
used, and probably used hard "

This was the name of a thread started by Mr. Griffith on the 12th. Where did it go? The search function finds it but says it is inaccessible. Is this a hurricane-related problem? It was one of the better "what is tactical" threads we've had, IMO.

-Drew
 
Drew,

Lynn Griffith's thread went into the same black hole that sucked up all his individual posts on my thread.

Seems Mr. Griffith has decided to completely withdraw from this discussion.

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I don't want my children fed or clothed by the state, but I would prefer THAT to their being educated by the state.
 
That's a shame. He had some good input on the subject and I was appreciating his counterpoints, though I realize this particular thread got a bit ugly.

-Drew
 
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