Taking Deposits?

I'm only making part-time, so deposits are a definite no-go for me as my knifemakin-time varies so much according to how busy I am at my full-time job (making set-in-stone delivery dates a very bad idea). I can generally give a good guess (within a month) but an exact time-frame is impossible at this point.

Just a question for you full-time guys: Do you take the deposit at the time of order, or at the start of construction (especially if you have a long wait-list)?

Have a good one,
Nathan
 
NDallyn said:
Just a question for you full-time guys: Do you take the deposit at the time of order, or at the start of construction (especially if you have a long wait-list)?

Have a good one,Nathan
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Not being full time, I'll give you an answer from a buyer. I've bought a lot of custom stuff. (Pool cues, saddles, autos, guns, artwork, etc), AND I've sold a lot of my work (mostly custom furniture, race engines, welding stuff, etc.)

When the buyer is hot, you get the deposit. It's engrained in your soul. Get MORE business, is the way of the world. Most of the time, it works fine. The buyer wants the thing, you want to sell it.

Now for the caveat..........A custom knife is not a custom house. Nor is it a custom piece of furniture that took 4 months to make and cost thousands in materials. A custom knife is a tool, to be used, or to be admired. Sometimes, as in rare coins, it's actually an investment. Some on this forum make a good living buying and selling what we, as makers, think of as commodities.

So, the answer to your question is: the deposit is taken at the time of the order. Your next question might be: "what about taking it when starting the work?"

This is routine on housebuilding, for example, but won't work with this kind of specialized product.

I submit that knifemaking is mostly art, with a bit of science and a dash of magic thown in to make the stew. Artists and craftsmen are an independent lot. Some will conform to the norms, some will not. Neither is correct. I've learned on this thread what *I* will do for me, but have neither the power, nor the arrogance to tell *you* what is the correct thing for anybody else. I've heard what the most respected members of this business think, and, for me, it just confirms what I already knew by instinct.

If you have a different way of thinking, you could be just as correct.;)
 
I do know a couple of makers that contact the buyer when they are ready to start making the knife to let them know that it is time to send a deposit. Seems to work for them. The buyer is not out the money for as much as a couple of years or more, and the maker finds out if the buyer is still interested before starting the knife.
 
I have bought in my time only three houses. Each I had to put a deposit on. I have bought some cars. Each I had to put a deposit on. There have been other things too that have required me to place deposit. The purpose of such was to hold my place in line. To me I do not even see the discussion about whether to ask for deposit. It is common practice everywhere else. Why should we be so timid. I take the deposit up front and make for him the best I can. If you are shy or even in question of asking for upfront deposit do yourself a favor and just keep it as a hobby. I have been blessed with most wonderful customers. I certainly have been. Economics change though. knives aren't made over night and economics turn one way to the other with time and customers, myself included, may not be so financially well when time comes as they were at time of order. It is important to help defer lose. Sure if the customer drops we say 'well I can sell it elsewhere' but that requires extra effort and time lost. Your time is worth something and the electric company and etc. does not care a whit. Go late on them and see what happens to you. My point is: when you're full time, no nothing else, no wife income, no social security income, no anything else income, run it like any other reasonable business man would.

With all that said, I am most thoughtful of my customers. I have held finished knives for many months without pay because they have asked me to until they were able to pay and I have suffered for it. I have not tried to sell them to others and I even have a blade I have held for over a year without ever hearing back from him even to this day. They, most of them, come back when they are able. I charge them no premium for that and I would recommend doing the same. I have been slammed here by one customer dissatisfied with the time it takes me and a reader offered to buy him out. I said no, I can not do that unless he refuses the finished knife when finished. It's a two way street; not a one way street. You're putting your guts into what he wants. He can can put a few bucks up too to show his part of the bargin.

rlinger
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rlinger said:
With all that said, I am most thoughtful of my customers. I have held finished knives for many months without pay because they have asked me to until they were able to pay and I have suffered for it. I have not tried to sell them to others and I even have a blade I have held for over a year without ever hearing back from him even to this day. They, most of them, come back when they are able. I charge them no premium for that and I would recommend doing the same. I have been slammed here by one customer dissatisfied with the time it takes me and a reader offered to buy him out. I said no, I can not do that unless he refuses the finished knife when finished. It's a two way street; not a one way street. You're putting your guts into what he wants. He can can put a few bucks up too to show his part of the bargin.

rlinger
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You're joking right? http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4648700#post4648700 Deposits really don't seem to be working out for you. Or more importantly, your customers.

ALWAYS watch out for someone asking for deposits on knives UNLESS it requires something special that the maker would be out of pocket for or it's so unique no one else would buy it if the current deal goes south. Bad form Rodger.:thumbdn:
 
Yup, it seems Bob Dozier and AG were right on the mark, here!

What a timely link, Oilman. While I don't know the man in question, I've read the posts.............and you're right, he seems to have dug himself a hole that is just getting deeper. <sigh>
 
Lemme offer the collectors POV, er, at least mine. I have two customs on order, not ready to be made, just both makers know I want a camp knife from them. One can make me my knife any time I want it, the other has a one year wait. One has desert ironwood scales I handpicked and bought. The other has variations of the design I want selling already.

I wanted to put deposits down on both knives. They refused, stating as others have said that they just don't like the idea of deposits. I'm not used to spending more than 150.00 for a knife, and would like to pay in increments, but can see how much of a pain in the ass that would be for a maker, and for me too. It will not stop my buying from them, I have bought from both in the past, and ordered a custom from one. I respect their opinions, and will pull the plug on one at the next meeting I attend, and will request the custom from the other one probably around December. No big deal to me. I will have the money, and will be able to pay up front, and they give an inspection time for the knife.
 
Mr. Oilman or who ever you are, only because you took a swing at me, I complete and deliver every knife I am commissioned to make.:) :) ...and I use my real name Mr Oilman, even on the postings.

rlinger
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rlinger said:
Mr. Oilman or who ever you are, only because you took a swing at me, I complete and deliver every knife I am commissioned to make.:) :) ...and I use my real name Mr Oilman, even on the postings.

rlinger
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Telling the truth and offering an opinion are taking a swing? :confused: And Cleaner145 there might have something to say about you completing every commissioned order like you claim. Near as I can tell, he's been paid in full for over a year.
 
rlinger said:
I have bought in my time only three houses. Each I had to put a deposit on. I have bought some cars. Each I had to put a deposit on.

rlinger
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There is a slight difference though, in these cases, after you paid your deposit, did they then start making the house or car?

Or were they already made and you took actual possession after paying the deposit?

Actually in the case of a house or a car, isn't it more commonly a "downpayment", not a "deposit"?

Is that the case with a custom handmade knife?

I doubt most knifemakers plan on not filling an order, (Although Allan Blade comes to mind), but what happens when you have taken a bunch of peoples money and then can't complete the orders ontime and have spent their money already?

Once that snowball starts rolling, a makers reputation can take an awefull hit.
 
A deposit is between a maker and his customer. it is up to a customer if he pays a deposit, and up to a maker if he wants a deposit. It is a lot of nonsense for any one else to go on about it. Take care of your own and let every one else take care of their own.

Bob D.
 
Bob Dozier said:
Take care of your own and let every one else take care of their own.

Bob D.
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Mr. Dozier, with all due respect, I may not fully understand what you meant, but if we all did that then lots of folks would just keep getting taken by bad makers wouldn't they?

If a maker takes deposits and doesn't complete orders isn't that something knife collectors need to share with each other?
 
I do not see anything hard to understand about what I said. After 50 post are made, every one will know if a maker has done a customer wrong. Most of you have had no contact with this man, and I am sure that every one has read and understands what was said. I don't post very often, but do enjoy reading most of the threads when they don't go too far and get repetitious. I am not defending any one, but do get bored with posts that go on and on and nothing new is said.
I am working today and don't have much time at the computer, but will check later and if you have trouble understanding this post I will try and find an other way of explaining myself.

Bob D.

I mean no offense to any one. v
 
I started this thread, and would like to end it before we lose sight of what has been learned here, please.

A few comments:

I agree with Bod Dozier that making a deposit and/or recieving one is a private matter between the maker and the buyer. This works as long as both parties understand the risks. This thread educated most here on that quite well.

However, a maker that appears to have gotten himself in trouble taking deposits, should be held accountable so that:

1. Other, non-suspecting buyers may be protected
2. And, more importantly, the community at large doesn't suffer the loss of reputation that a few problem makers create.

However, this is not the place for that. This forum has wisely set up a place to discuss these isssues (The good, bad, and ugly). Buyers may research their prospective makers there, and any maker may respond that wishes to defend himself.

In the end, however, it's always caveat emptor, buyer protect yourself.

Thanks to everyone for a great forum and a timely topic!
 
I happen to agree with Bob. How a transaction is made between two people is no one elses business. All I read from Bob is for people to follow a tried and true simple rule of thumb. Mind your own business.

Now this does not mean when a deal goes sour that someone should not voice disappointment or concern or even negative feedback but again even that is the business of the people concerned. Many times when a maker is as A Last Confederate just said, a 'bad maker' word is out about that somewhere if you do a little checking first.

In my experience communication is key to good relationships and good business transactions which I think is why I rarely have any problems in my dealings. As for taking money up front or not. Again, its not anyone elses concern how I do it except for the customers. Nothing meant to offend there, just the plain truth. Its a private matter.

STR
 
I agree with Mr. Dozier and STR, up to a point. It is a private matter,between customer and maker, when the customer actually recieves private responses. However, when he recieves no response to multiple private messages and decides to post about it on a public forum, it becomes a public matter. Even more so, it becomes a public matter when the maker in question makes claims that he is "most thoughtful to his customers." Claims such as that almost demand refutation- or at least the airing of another point of view.

What I can't understand is why more makers are not self-policing. As I said once before, IMO, I believe that the poor business practices of one maker can have a negative effect that touches other makers and the knife hobbyist community as a whole.

I got a big mouth and my own opinions. I know it. But, no matter the business, its bad news when a customer gets treated the way Cleaner has.

For the record, I have nothing but respect for the talents of the vast majority of the makers here and a great belief that the majority are ethical and honest men. But that won't keep me from speaking my mind when something just doesn't sit right with me either.
 
Bob Dozier said:
I do not see anything hard to understand about what I said. After 50 post are made, every one will know if a maker has done a customer wrong.

I mean no offense to any one. v
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OK, thanks. I misunderstood, I get you now. Your right, sometimes these things get beat to death. I thought maybe you meant nodoby should ever report on a problem with a maker at all. Sorry for the confusion.

No offense was meant on my part either, take care.

TLC
 
Roger Linger,

I've sent you 7 e-mails and have called you multiple times. Twice when I've called you said" Hold On" and then hung up the phone. When I call back the answering machine picks up.

I've been patient long enough. You need to contact me.
 
it looks like there is at least one maker that believes that as long as he delivers the knife at some point before he dies that he has fulfilled his part of the contract. If the maker takes deposits and gives a delivery time, the maker is obligated to deliver on time, not when he feels like it.
 
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