taking orders/ wait lists/ what not to do

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timos-

timos-

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Oct 22, 2012
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I guess I could use some advice. Not sure if this is entirely appropriate public discussion but here goes...

Im happy to say Im closing in on four years of grinding knives and the orders are starting to pile up. coool, but wait a minute...Its starting to be a real challenge to stay organized, communicate well, some people want to pay up front, some want hard to get and expensive materials, yada yada yada. The other day a customer was hesitant to place an order b/c his first and only experience involved making a deposit 3 years ago and he had yet to receive a knife! ? ...three years wait list? That doesn't even make sense. Im thinking about designating a max amount of custom orders I can achieve per year, that still allows me time to do some of my own creations and the occasional "mid tech" run. What are some of the tactics the more seasoned veterans use to manage wait lists or even get rid of them?
 
i am not very seasoned, (12 years on and off, 124 knives so far) but i dont like wait lists or unpaid pre-orders. i have heard too many stories of people not being able to pay for their knives when they are finished, and it has happened to me a few times. having a schedule to adhere to takes the fun and artistry out of it for me. i try to keep it a paying creative hobby instead of feeling like a job. if you already have a list, maybe finish it and change your strategy :) i think randall has a 4 year waiting list. i wouldent have the patience !
 
I don't take pre-payments, and don't take orders with any deadline date. What I do is make notes on what a potential customer wants done, give an estimate after I have time to work out the details, and tell them that I will send them an email with photos and the final price when it is ready. I make it clear that it will be done when it is done, and that it may be six months or three years. I have had people wait six or more years until I felt like tackling a big project ... they were never disappointing. If they pass on buying it when it is done, I rarely have any problem selling it to someone else. I keep a list of people looking for various types of knives and send them emails as I finish new inventory.

There is a lot of breathing room in this type arrangement.
First - The knife is yours until the customer buys it. This eliminates the, "When will MY knife be done." and "This isn't exactly what I was immagining."
Second - It eliminates feeling pressured to finish a knife by a certain date or trying to rush to meet a deadline.
Last - It allows you to control all the details .. work schedule, price, design, materials. I can't tell you how many times I have heard/read "I hate this knife but it is what the customer drew.", or "I know that XYZ looks terrible with ZYX, but the customer asked for it.", or "I really don't like using pine and lawn mower blades , but the customer only wanted to pay me $100.

Many long time makers do not take any pre-payment and many do not take orders at all.
 
I dealt with it the exact same way Stacy does. When I started selling I was a senior in highschool, and I simply couldnt promise dates. So i followed a couple major rules

1. NEVER take money until the client has a knife in their hand. It doesnt matter what expensive handle material they want or anything. If you dont let them give you money before a product, there is a relatively low ceiling to their anger for delays and what not. They have no money invested and have the option of walking away. It makes people feel more calm about it, and again it makes delays less major.

2. Under promise and over deliver. When I sold wood mostly to other local knife makers, many of them just starting out, I heard a lot of bragging, and on on reddit a lot of hyping up products. Thats not my style. I tell them what I can know will be true. The knife will out preform their current cheap department store knives, it will take and hold a very keen edge, the handle will be a beautiful wood, I will always sharpen the knife for free, and you will be consulted along the process to make sure you like the progress of the knife.

3. Dont push the knife. At least to hard. Sometimes people get cold feet. But as a maker of culinary knives in Los Angeles I found my problem was by FAR an inability to make enough knives to meet demand. There will be someone else to buy it. If you "force" someone who ordered a knife to buy it and take it, they wont talk highly of it. If someone sees it and buys it off you, they will be proud. They bring it out at dinner parties and brag! Its a massive pain when someone orders something and then backs out. I have been stuck with a full mahogany dining room set! But I sold it a few weeks later. Our craft can not meet the public's demand, so dont worry.
 
3 years isn't that uncommon these days..Ive seen several that are 4 years and folks lining up to get on the lists..
 
Yeah i suppose once you get established a wait list maybe not so bad an idea. I personally take a small non refundable deposit to cover cost of requested material on custom orders. I prefer that b/c I wouldn't want to be out any money. Of course if you can sell everything you make then it wouldnt really be a problem. I do like the challenge of taking custom orders. It works really well with chef knife enthusiasts who have a whole list of features they like and want to combine them all into one knife. I am gonna have to be careful with the estimate delivery though, its getting difficult to manage.

I appreciate you guys chiming in.
 
I'm a tattooer by trade, my job involves pre paying, specific dates to be done drawings/appointment booking and wait periods for clients they may not be stoked on
I felt I had to go into knifemaking with the same mind set but as this is my 'hobby' I do in spare time (for now) and not my main source of income(for now) I realized that all those stress factors and pressures should be avoided until that type of organization is absolutely necessary, I. E. I have more orders than I can handle and need to plan out my days, like my do job. Until then just make for the sake of making, or to sell but not to anyone specific and when someone comes at me with a project throw it on the top of the pile and it's done when it's done. It seems like that is industry standard, it's another appeal to the craft opposed to needing to have a schedule book
 
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I do have a issue as a new to it guy, and that is pricing the ones I do sell. I constantly worry as I'm new I'm overpricing, but advice from a veteran blade smith was also don't undersell. In my day job I know what I'm worth but when it comes to this even though I've sold knives for a decent price whenever I see a knife by more experienced makers I think is crazy goodon sale for less than what I charge, or someone thinking the price I give them is "not affordable at the time" I feel I have to reduce my prices
 
I'm just getting into starting my knife business, but my main job is another business where I sell wooden goods that I make. First off, honesty and clarity are the most important IMHO when dealing with customers. You don't want to make knives for people who don't want them, so giving them as much clear info about your process and knives beforehand is key.

You have options when it comes to "custom" as there is a huge spectrum. It's very different to make a full custom vs. someone wanting a specific exotic wood. For full custom projects, I have always liked 50% up front, 50% on delivery structure, but that monetary agreement is just one small part of a very solid contract which is signed by both parties upon approval of a design. Approval of a design means that the client understands based on your other work and the sketch how the final piece will turn out. You do not want to get caught in the loop of forever trying to please someone who refuses to be realistic, you will only lose money. For work with customizations, you should price all of the options out ahead of time. For example, if you normally have canvas micarta built into the price of a certain knife, and there is potential for clients to want desert ironwood or whatever the case may be, you know how much of the wood you would need, where to get it, and your extra time acquiring and working with the different material. Price it out with a markup for overhead. If you start to get a ton of orders with desert ironwood requests, you can buy ahead in larger sizes to save money and increase profit.

I am not a seasoned pro, and I don't have to manage wait lists per se, but in the Christmas season especially I can be backed up with wholesale orders and retailers can get impatient. Every time I take a wholesale order, I send a paypal invoice with a condensed version of my wholesale terms included. This always outlines the expected ship date of their order. My normal shipping window for a wholesale order is about three weeks, in reality I get most out in two weeks or less, but shit happens when you run your own business and I want to beat expectations rather than satisfy them. Around Christmas, every time I get a large order I have to evaluate based on the size and my other orders whether the number needs to change. Working for yourself gives you some flexibility here because, yeah, sometimes you will get more swamped and have expectations to meet unexpectedly, I can work an 80+hr week if I need to.

Hope this helps some.
 
I started making knives as an outlet to get myself away from my executive city job that in the beginning was a dream but became a chore after working up the ranks. I enjoyed the exposure of having the better regrinds and handle replacements in the area so I offered a batch of folks some customs to get some from scratch experience for free. Now that I left the kitchen and am taking this full on I have fallen behind on the free customs as I am getting paying folks starting to take notice. I do catch myself in the shop regularly reading cranky texts and very nasty facebook pm's.... I have to remind them often that not only are you going to get a free knife with an expensive exotic wood, but the design you have layed out would likely make experienced smiths cringe. The best way I found to balance it out is every 3rd project is a free custom mixed in with the normal everyday, this number is not ideal for the recipients by hey it's free!

Now this rant may seem laughable to some though many experienced makers I have read up on have accounts of this nature. That said I am going to add my echo into the thousands that have said it before me. " Know your limitations and pace yourself accordingly" if you have someone wanting a knife made take their name, number and/or email. Explain to them you are full at the time and you can contact them in the near future when you have a little more wiggle room. As stated above the vast majority of folks will get it and would rather wait than have you rush and produce possibly shotty work.

Just my 0.02 bit
 
Thank you everyone who helped me to think this over. I think Ive got a good handle on how to move forward. HDCutlery if you are making knives for free, send me one:D
 
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