Talk to me about milling machines

You'll want parallels right away if you're going to use a vise. Setting work up in a vise is probably what you will use them for 99% of the time, though they have other uses if you're inventive.
 
Dude, considering I know where you live, and I've bought most of my machinery at insane prices from your area, I'd highly recommend you consider a full sized knee mill, unless there's some caveat I can't fathom. A Bridgeport won't take significantly more floor space, and will handle a lot more than any of these import mills of this type, and if you're patient, you'll probably save money.


Yes, weight matters. When it comes to machine tools, the rule of thumb is nearly always accurate: heavier the better. Most American made machine tools are/were built much heavier in weight than strictly necessary, because rigidity has a direct and very real affect on accuracy.

Even for knife work you can see the difference between a good mini import mill and a decent domestic mill. Night and day between a really tight domestic mill and the best import. To be fair, you can absolutely do great work with a machine like you linked. It'll just take more care, and more patience, and unless there's some specific reason to go that route, why? Some of the full sized imports are quite decent also, and I'd definitely take any real knee mill over a bench/mini like the linked type.

I'm sure everybody that has one of these types of mills is going to feel insulted. Not my intent, but hopefully we can all agree that they have limitations, simply by design.

Even if you're not an expert on machine tools, you can pretty easily tell the difference between a really nice machine, and a potentially bad one. On top of which, I'm close and willing to help you. I'm actually going to be in your area looking at a surface grinder soon, and the owner also has a very nice looking Enco Variable head with DRO. This is an import bridgeport clone. Not as nice inherently, but if he's taken care of it, comparable to a Bridgeport that hasn't been taken care of, if it's Taiwanese especially.
 
kuraki said:
Don't use 3 jaw drill chucks, keyless or otherwise, for holding endmills. They are not designed to withstand radial (side) loading.

It can be done in a pinch, with small endmills and very very light cuts when there's no other option to accomplish what you need to do, but it's not something you want to plan on doing.

Use collets or endmill holders like the count recommended. FWIW I've been machining 20 years and have always used collets in small manual machines. It's been rare that I have an issue doing so. It can happen, for sure, and an endmill holder will allow you to get the full removal rates the tool and machine are capable of, but it's never been worth the cost to me.

Little Machine Shop has a closeout right now on a 4" milling vise. Only $65. I bought one for my big mill. https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1504&category=
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input and link! I also appreciate you explaining that about the chucks, really helps me understand.
 
javand said:
Dude, considering I know where you live, and I've bought most of my machinery at insane prices from your area, I'd highly recommend you consider a full sized knee mill, unless there's some caveat I can't fathom. A Bridgeport won't take significantly more floor space, and will handle a lot more than any of these import mills of this type, and if you're patient, you'll probably save money.


Yes, weight matters. When it comes to machine tools, the rule of thumb is nearly always accurate: heavier the better. Most American made machine tools are/were built much heavier in weight than strictly necessary, because rigidity has a direct and very real affect on accuracy.

Even for knife work you can see the difference between a good mini import mill and a decent domestic mill. Night and day between a really tight domestic mill and the best import. To be fair, you can absolutely do great work with a machine like you linked. It'll just take more care, and more patience, and unless there's some specific reason to go that route, why? Some of the full sized imports are quite decent also, and I'd definitely take any real knee mill over a bench/mini like the linked type.

I'm sure everybody that has one of these types of mills is going to feel insulted. Not my intent, but hopefully we can all agree that they have limitations, simply by design.

Even if you're not an expert on machine tools, you can pretty easily tell the difference between a really nice machine, and a potentially bad one. On top of which, I'm close and willing to help you. I'm actually going to be in your area looking at a surface grinder soon, and the owner also has a very nice looking Enco Variable head with DRO. This is an import bridgeport clone. Not as nice inherently, but if he's taken care of it, comparable to a Bridgeport that hasn't been taken care of, if it's Taiwanese especially.
Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in Javan. I saw that Enco... but here's my line of thought: 1. I may not have all the cash needed to make a cash purchase, and I need to buy this before end of the year for a tax write off. 2. I learned from dealing w/ my used surface grinder, used/cheaper isn't always the way to go - I've logged many hours trying to diagnose/fix that thing and still having issues w/ it. I would have no way of knowing what condition the spindle/bearings, etc was in without someone w/ a ton of knowledge going with me and inspecting it - like you - very kind of your offer btw! I'm assuming would be difficult to tell anyway without breaking the machine down and physically checking it out. 3. my shop has wood floors, joists are 2x6 and 12" on center, 3/4" plywood - not sure it could support that kind of weight. It probably could w/ reinforcing the support underneath w/ cinder blocks but not sure.
 
I highly recommend the Dial Test Indicator and Parallels you will need both for setups.
Kuraki is right about collets and starting out Little Machine Shop is a good place to shop for specials.
 
razor-edge-knives said:
Wouldn't it be more advantageous to get a keyless chuck to take the place of the end mill holder or is there a disadvantage to using it?

I'm sure I'll be ordering many things in the coming years lol. But right off the bat I was going to order the following (if you guys have advise for or against these I would love to hear it):
Anything I'm missing right off the bat? Dial test indicator or parallels or will those be fine at a later date? I did find this thread on tuning the PM-727, looks like he had a bit to do - hope mine won't be that bad but if it is I know the customer support will be there (unlike grizzly!)
Click to expand...

As Kukri said, chucks are for drilling.
Drill shanks are softer, end mills are hard - endmills will spin and kill the chuck jaws.
You still need the collets-at the very least to hold the edge finderand the indicator-the price on that PM set is reasonable-USA made are 45 each.

Tom Lipton is a proponent of putting short fixed straight shanks on his drill chucks for quicker transitions - from less head movement.

https://www.amazon.com/Metalworking-Sink-Swim-Machinists-Fabricators/dp/0831133627
https://www.youtube.com/user/oxtoolco

You will use parallels in the vise-probably right away

Re that 5 inch vise - There's a chance it's too big for that machine, the 4 inch Kukri showed may be good
You can also go smaller with a toolmaker type vise
http://www.shars.com/3-x-5-precision-toolmakers-vise

The dial test indicator is how you will tram in and line your vise up straight.


There is a video series by
AGI-Milling Machine-Darrell Holland.
It's expensive, but you can find downloads.
You can learn a lot on setups from good YT machinists
Stefan Gotteswinter
Tom Lipton-ox tool
Adam Booth
Robin Renzetti
Tom's Techniques
 
If your pocketbook and space allow, get at least a Bridgeport sized mill. 475lbs for a mill does not equate it as being a "beast". My 800lb gear head mill has been relegated to mostly drill press work due to its lack of rigidity, and inability to "geterdone!". I went from the small to a medium to a "full sized" mill, before finally settling in. Don't forget that just because you are purchasing a mill for your bladesmithing doesn't mean that will not find a multitude of other projects for it. My suggestion? Go big w/ a 3 axis DRO.
 
Busto said:
I highly recommend the Dial Test Indicator and Parallels you will need both for setups.
Kuraki is right about collets and starting out Little Machine Shop is a good place to shop for specials.
Click to expand...

Thanks Busto, definitely going to pick some up... Trying to save $$ where I can, would the following work at least for now?

12345678910 said:
As Kukri said, chucks are for drilling.
Drill shanks are softer, end mills are hard - endmills will spin and kill the chuck jaws.
You still need the collets-at the very least to hold the edge finderand the indicator-the price on that PM set is reasonable-USA made are 45 each.

Tom Lipton is a proponent of putting short fixed straight shanks on his drill chucks for quicker transitions - from less head movement.

https://www.amazon.com/Metalworking-Sink-Swim-Machinists-Fabricators/dp/0831133627
https://www.youtube.com/user/oxtoolco

You will use parallels in the vise-probably right away

Re that 5 inch vise - There's a chance it's too big for that machine, the 4 inch Kukri showed may be good
You can also go smaller with a toolmaker type vise
http://www.shars.com/3-x-5-precision-toolmakers-vise

The dial test indicator is how you will tram in and line your vise up straight.


There is a video series by
AGI-Milling Machine-Darrell Holland.
It's expensive, but you can find downloads.
You can learn a lot on setups from good YT machinists
Stefan Gotteswinter
Tom Lipton-ox tool
Adam Booth
Robin Renzetti
Tom's Techniques
Click to expand...

wow, thanks for all the links man! I've got a ton of reading for sure, along w/ yt watching!... I'll check on the 4 vs 5" vise to see what it can handle. Those names give me a GREAT place to start
 
Jonathans said:
If your pocketbook and space allow, get at least a Bridgeport sized mill. 475lbs for a mill does not equate it as being a "beast". My 800lb gear head mill has been relegated to mostly drill press work due to its lack of rigidity, and inability to "geterdone!". I went from the small to a medium to a "full sized" mill, before finally settling in. Don't forget that just because you are purchasing a mill for your bladesmithing doesn't mean that will not find a multitude of other projects for it. My suggestion? Go big w/ a 3 axis DRO.
Click to expand...

Neither allows for it atm lol... limited on space, and limited on funds unfortunately! But you are right, wish I could go bigger =(
 
Josh,
Yes both the parallels and Dial Test Indicator will work fine to get you going...use your calipers to check the parallels they should be spot on but import tools can catch you off guard on quality. When you stash some cash step up to one of the other Indicators I mentioned earlier...They are Dead Nuts On Precision and yes you get what you pay for...saves on Hair Loss from frustration also;):cool:
 
Busto said:
Josh,
Yes both the parallels and Dial Test Indicator will work fine to get you going...use your calipers to check the parallels they should be spot on but import tools can catch you off guard on quality. When you stash some cash step up to one of the other Indicators I mentioned earlier...They are Dead Nuts On Precision and yes you get what you pay for...saves on Hair Loss from frustration also;):cool:
Click to expand...

Will do haha, I recently upgraded my caliper to a Mitutoyo so been loving that! One step at a time ;)
 
Just my $.02 worth... Get something with a reputation for Precision. I'd rather have a machine that has high repeatability on travels and speeds, and use a DRO to get the accuracy. Run out, slop in the way's for the table, slop in the head due to worn out bearings, etc. can lead to catastrophic results (literally - too much tool pressure on a carbide cutter can lead to explosive results). No matter if you buy used or new, check the tram in the table to make sure you don't have a movement in the table. If the mill is used, most of the time it's wear in ways, if new, it's likely a gib adjustment/tightening issue or slop in the worm drives.

Youtube Channels to check:
Keith Rucker
OxToolCo
Abom79
AvE
SuburbanTool Inc.
Toms Techniques

AvE is funny AF. Sit back with a beer for his videos.

I agree with those folks that say heavier is better, as this is by default a result of more mass. More mass leads to more stability in movement by laws of inertia. Skookum as Frig...

Also, research standard milling vs. climb milling. That can save your life and your end mills.
 
one other thing to note is how fast the mill can turn. the RPM top end might limit your carbide tool use. i lucked out and have a BP that had the HS head on it so my top pully ratio is 5600 RPM and when you are using knife maker sized carbide tooling you will need that speed (im not sure top speed of my mini mill since it has the LMS belt pully convertion my mini mill does all the drilling in the shop 99% of the fly cutting things flat. i used the BP for making new tooling and in fact only use it maybe once a month or less (the mini is jsut to handy and i keep it in my dirty shop side cause i dont care as much about it )
 
Im also in the market for my first mill, and in similar position as OP. know i need it, got very little exp with it though. Used a Bridgeport a few times for slotting and nail nicks but thats it for exp. I tried finding a bridgeport in my region that wasnt a complete wreck(like i would even know!) or massively overpriced and have given up on that after 18 months of hard searching. Plus the space and 3 phase of a full knee would really cramp my space and panel. So been looking at the Asian made benchtops as an option. I had mostly settled on grizz or the littlemachineshop but after seeing these Precision Matthews ones like OP just bought, im now thinking that might be a better fit for me as well due to the heftier build and Taiwanese over Chinese origin. and 3 year warranty is pretty solid over the competitors and says a lot i think.

Any of you machinists got an opinion on them? specifically the model the OP bought, and also the steps above it, the PM-932, and PM-940. Is the jump up from the the 727 to the 932/940 worth it(i know they weigh a lot more and are 220 over 110, but thats my level of knowledge) And how do these compare to the littlemachineshop 5500? I can fit and power any of these benchtop models no problem, so it's really coming down to what really would suit my needs best, and being that im essentially a newb with mills, figuring this out has been a challenge. 99% of what i would be using it for is slotting guards, fullers, nail nicks, and making the occasional knife making fixture and tooling. Not planning doing any extreme stuff with it, just the normal knife maker milling tasks. Any tips or advice from the brain trust here would be greatly appreciated.
 
Aidenag,
If you read "Butch's" post above you get some insight to one of the schools of thought. If you have a defined list of operations you want to perform for knife making you will probably find a Moderately priced Bench Top can handle all those tasks. If you plan on doing Larger tasks outside knife making then a larger machine might be a better choice. As Butch said "99%" of all his tasks are on a small machine.

I believe that the Gear Head machines are a step above the belt driven heads on the small machines and from the photos I looked at the PM and Grizzly machines with identical features are probably made in the same factory in Taiwan just different paint. I don't see much added value on 740 over the 727 which I think will do everything in knife making. As a retired machinist I have been able to pick up bigger equipment that I use for gunsmithing and some outside contract work but that requires a much larger piece of equipment if I were only doing Knives I would consider Grizzly or PM Gear Head Mills.
 
as to the belt vs gear drive my mini mill was gear driven (till i broke the plastic gears) and a bridgeport is belt driven
the belt conversion on the mini mill gave me more RPM at the cutter so it was better able to run the smaller endmills at proper speeds and cut down on noise was a nice thing too
 
butcher_block said:
as to the belt vs gear drive my mini mill was gear driven (till i broke the plastic gears) and a bridgeport is belt driven
the belt conversion on the mini mill gave me more RPM at the cutter so it was better able to run the smaller endmills at proper speeds and cut down on noise was a nice thing too
Click to expand...

What max speeds do we need for what we do? (ti, steel, aluminum, g10, etc)?
 
A Aidenag I was very close to buying the same machine the OP bought because while I have room for a knee mill and the knowledge to be comfortable with a used machine, everything I found was outside my desired mileage to drive and inspect.

I was putting money aside to order one when the knee mill I bought turned up 2 hours away for less than a mini, so I ended up with that instead. But I agree with everything Busto says above.
 
butcher_block said:
as to the belt vs gear drive my mini mill was gear driven (till i broke the plastic gears) and a bridgeport is belt driven
the belt conversion on the mini mill gave me more RPM at the cutter so it was better able to run the smaller endmills at proper speeds and cut down on noise was a nice thing too
Click to expand...
Butch,

How long did it run before the gears went South? Just curious since most of these with the smaller HP I could see have that problem because of trying to run at faster speeds and driving the machine beyond the Gears limits. So there is a conversion to belt drive and sounds like that eliminates the gear noise that's cool:cool:and produces more RPM:cool::thumbsup:....

ETA....Wonder if these clones all have plastic gears???
 
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