Tanto blades... chisel grinds?

I don't like them at all. But this is a personal matter :)
I think a nice traditionally sharpened blade can do, without the problems at cutting things a chisel edge will cause.
The points of traditional japanese swords weren't like modern chisel point knives, they are far more curved, for one. They weren't done like that for penetrating armor. Actually, a katana used that way will almost surely bend.
The only stabs carried out with a katana were used to hit the face or the neck (when unprotected) or under the armpit.
They were seldom carried out.
Samurais were trained to hit trying to avoid armor, even if accidental contact with armor could and did happen.
But they didn't have the tendency of western medieval fighters to bash thru armor.
Even more, it's true that a chisel point is quite strong, but has one of the worst penetrating shapes you can conceive. Bodkin daggers and those called "misericordia" had far more efficent square section blades which then spread to a nice cutting edge. They were fearsome weapons and inspired the Fairbairn Sykes, probably the best fighting dagger ever (sorry bowie fans :) )
They have extremely sturdy points which have an awesome penetration.
Chisel shaped blades with chisel ground edges are just a fashion of the last few years. I see no practical advantages in them, especially if compared with most SERIOUS stabbers or cutters.
There's a reason if knives have been made for thousand years with a symmetrical edge :)
 
I have an article in a knife book where the author interviews Phil Hartsfeld. As everyone here probably knows, Phil chisel grinds his blades. A chisel ground blade has less drag, says Phil, as there are less corners on it. The tip isn't the only thing to look at with respect to penetration. Phil also has a little wood block with a slot cut in it and he demonstrated for the author that one of his yori toshis would penetrate a business card placed on top of the slot in the block much more easily than the Fairbairn/Sykes dagger. With an Americanized tanto tip, there is a tremeandous amount of pressure placed on a very pointy area. Since the tip gets to full thickness so quickly, after the tip penetrates the rest of the blade will sail through the object. You only have drag at the tip, not on the rest of the blade really. Chisel grind the combat blade and you have even less drag.

By the way, this is a very cool thread to discuss!
 
Much on plate right now.

Perhaps in future:)

Very kind of you to ask:p

And when world stops spinning so fast I will be both honored and humbled to do so:)
 
Thanks Sierra.

In the new year I'll put away some $$ so that when you are ready for me, I'll place an order. I'll be honored to have digned copies and after reading them, I'll better be able to save by butt on the street! We will be winners all around! :)

By the way, what do you think of the Warrior/hobbit knives? I want your Battle Blades book (DUH!) and I'm, sure you ahev soem words in there on the blades! I'd liek to know how well they handle and what the tip is like. Thanks.

Knives rule! :)
 
I've BOTH chisel pointed knives and traditional knives and a couple of daggers.
I've meade several experiments and found that the daggers are the best penetrators, followed by dagger-like knives.
The tinier the point, the more it will penetrate.
It's just a matter of force / surface ratio, and of the angle the edges will form with the sides of the opening the blade produces.
A chisel point will punch a hole and then the whole blade will follow without drag.
A dagger like blade will widen and widen the hole every inch it penetrates.
BUT the initial force needed to make the hole with the chisel pointed and ground blade is MUCH higher than the overall force needed by the bodkin point during all its travel in the medium to be pierced.

Since with most materials both the force needed to punch thru with the chisel point and the force needed to punch thru with the dagger point are well within the capabilities of the human arm, you have the FEELING of the chisel point going thru much better, as you feel a sudden absence of any resistance. Actually, just to open up the hole, you did exert much more force than with the dagger, but the dagger lets you feel the resistance the whole way, so you FEEL it as less efficient.

Where the difference shows is not in piercing a flimsy credit card, but when trying to punch trhu .5 mm or even 1mm of sheet iron, or something like that.
You'll see that with the chisel ground point you just can't do that: your arms can't produce enough energy to make the grossly angled chisel point to go thru, while the leverage created by the narrowly sloped edges of a dagger will make the job possible, if not easy, once the pinpoint like tip of the blade has punched thru. ;)
 
Originally posted by tom mayo
The whole purpose of the chisel grind is to provide a reinfored tip for penetration thru tougher materials
Click to expand...

I.e., the tip has sort of been "broken off" and resharpened, already, so to speak.
 
Originally posted by db
As I do like a chisel grind and they do work great for alot of cutting, I have found that 50% of the time the grind is on the wrong side no matter what side the grind is on. So for me at least the chisel grind is not a very good carry knife. Cray's first post shows this some what and I have found it to be that the grind seems to always be on the side I don't want it on while cutting something :)
Click to expand...

And that explains why the enormous majority of knives are symmetrically ground rather than chisel ground.
 
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