Tanto versus other points (this again).

Crayola

Crayola

Joined
Sep 23, 1999
Messages
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I read in one of Goddard's books that a chisel ground tanto blade leaves a more triangular hole in a person than a dropped point, which leaves and oval hole that closes in on itself.

I am wondering what you folks think about tanto versus other points for a fighting blade? Especially double ground tantos. Do you get the odd puncture wound with a double ground tanto? In Mick's knife fighting thread, I asked about which tip works better for stabs, but I think my question got missed. So, allow me to ask again. Which would be a more lethal stabber, all things being equal- a Strider MT or a Strider BT?


Strider BT
bt-mainpic.jpg


Strider MT

mt-mainpic.jpg


All pictures borrowed from Strider Knives
 
Right targeting and proper delivery of the strike, slash, or blow is what does the trick.

And that's on a good day.

I really don't know if tanto vrs. spear vrs. western tanto vrs. eastern tanto vrs. clip vrs WHATEVER is all that relevant.

It's like "What will get the job done...a .22 Magnum hollowpoint or a .357 hollowpoint...". Well, which one hits the targeted area accurately in the scenario? And, all things considered, is it a good day?

Again, I have no favorite point designs myself. Proper edge geometry for the job(s) the knife is supposed to be for, and proper tempering of the steel, is what I've found are the truly relevant things to be educated on.

Skill and Intent being the driving force(s) anyhow.

That's my take, for whatever it may be of help to you.
 
I don't think it matters.
If you stab someone it does'nt matter if the hole re-seals itself or not because the damage has already been done.
Let's say you stab someone in the abdomen and you manage to cut the aorta: it does'nt matter if their blood pours out into the street or if it just pools in their abdominal cavity.
A person can "bleed to death" and never have a drop of blood leave their body.

Just my opinion,
Allen.
 
I have never heard someone say “ Ouch, hey, you stabbed me. Oh well, at least the wound isn’t triangular, It will seal”.

Both will certainly work.
Both are designed specifically for stabbing, with differing thoughts.
Think of a spear, a spear is a long stick with a knife on the end. It is designed more for ‘jabbing’ than ‘stabbing’. A jab would be a quick series of stabs. With a hand held weapon, “knife”, it is pretty ineffective. But with a pole attached, it becomes horrifically effective. Jabs with a spear penetrate around six to ten inches. OUCH!
Since the spear is made for jabbing, it is double edged and kind of symmetrical. This allows for the blade to “slip-cut”. Which is to say that if you jab it at someone and hit a blockage, say a large bone, the blade will glance off and cut its way free. This is super important while fighting in a line. DON’T BREAK THE LINE! Stand and jab.

Tanto tips are more hand held. Designed to not slip, or be ‘sticky’. What I mean by this is that when pushed against a target, the blade tip will bite. By its nature, a tanto tip will gouge into its target. The blade will follow the tip. This is important in a hand held weapon in that you DON’T want your knife to “slip-cut”.
Tanto are very efficient cutters as well. If you learn to use what I call the “triangle of death”, which is the tangent point of the tip angles, where the cutting edge and “tip” edge come together. Very sharp, very angular. Great at making lots of three inch deep slashes.

Therefore, I would have to say that in a machine it would not matter what tip was used. But I think that in the hands of a scared shitless individual, the tanto would be a better stabber. Minutely maybe. Sometimes that matters a lot.

That being said, remember that the best knife in the world is the one you have access to.



Great forum
Great threads

Thanks



Mick
Post Script: I rarely carry a tanto.


RLTW
 
Sorry to do this, but if a tanto is minutely better what makes a better tanto? Vgrind or chisel grind?
 
Chisel grind is, well...
Made for chisels.
I don't like the way it pushes to one side.
That is my personal opinion though.
For stabbing, it wouldn't make much difference.

Mick


RLTW
 
I agree it is hard to make a clean straight cut with a chisel ground blade. I was just wondering if there was an benefit (besides uniquenes and marketing).
 
The Japanese chisel point was originally used primarily for utility knives meant to skin eels.

Yep, true.

The Japanese tanto point format meant for weaponry is upswept. Al Mar's TANKEN line features the traditional Japanese tanto upswept point, of which there were - of course - variations.

The "westernized" tanto (chisel) was their eel skinner.

The chisel grind looks great (cosmetics) and it's edge (primary) is very sharp because it can be ground so fine (which causes other challenges under hard use...like chipping). However, for utility use (broad base) I've found this format truly constrained. I used to carry this style but gave it up as it's just too restrictive and hence frustrating.

The western tanto point is again very handsome from a cosmetic point of view and it works real good for certain things. If these things are important to you, then this point format is the ticket if executed properly.

I prefer an upswept tanto format (point) such as seen on the Al Mar Tankens, and the Utility Tanto. Both models are long out of production. I found a Master Tanto that has been reground with the upswept point (brass fittings and pommel). Whoever did the job did it exceptionally well. The blade is leaner, lighter, and fast in the hand. The upswept point is a pure slasher and is likewise easy to hone and easy to use for utility taskings requiring a multi-tasking point.

Love it.

As for wounding -

Hit, hit hard, hit fast, hit often, hit accurately, and hit with focus, power, concentration, and detachment.

Your adversary is not going to ask for a spec sheet.
 
Sierra, does that thin edge that the chisel grind is capable of make it any better for a pure defensive blade in terms of cutting ability? Also, what are the characteristics of a blade such as an EKI Commander? I am curious since it is ground on both sides, but only sharpened on one, similar to a chisel grind. Thanks
 
In the days of Rapiers and dueling, some swords had triangle cross-sections. These DID heal slower and before antibotics a paper cut could kill you. So even if you killed me in the duel, the stap I gave you will kill you. . . maybe next month. Ah, the days of honour:rolleyes:

With modern medicine, if you don't kill the other guy, a triangle cross section will only scar a little more.
 
I've never found the chisel edge / thin grind all that more efficient as either an offensive or defensive attribute in such a knife.

Bearing in mind most such knives are essentially small folders.

I did find, and I've carried a wide variety of such blades over the years, that I hated how easily they seemed to chip out over the course of normal, everday use.

Then they are a pain to resharpen and clean up (the chipping).

I've worked with an E-KNIVES Commander in the recent past. Not my cup of tea. I would have been far more happy with it sharpened on both sides. Sorry, just not sold on "grind both sides but sharpen only one".

Grind one, sharpen one. Grind two, sharpen two.

However, I do carry an E-KNIFE daily. CQC7 with clip point blade. I still wish it was sharpened on both sides, however. It's a nice work knife with the serration (which makes up for having only one side sharpened conventional edge wise).

Larger tac-folder wise I have my SERE 2000 with serration (and fully sharpened, thank you very much:) )

Trust this helps.
 
You mention EDC and SD and I think there is a distinction to be made. For edc, do you find that the grind on your CQC-7 cuts straight or veers off like a chisel grind. Sorry, to keep harping on this topic, but I recently acquired an Emerson Mini-Commander and am wondering what to expect.
 
Expect nothing.

Test it.

Run it over a cutting dummy. Work it out over cloth, leather, light plastics.

See for yourself what it can do, will do, and won't do.

Learn to play the instrument well.

Then make it yours.

Lots of instruments in a band.

All needed to make good music.

The road to disappointment is paved with one's expectations of the journey yet to be taken.

Expect nothing. Make the journey. Then everything is a surprise and an adventure. The only disappointment comes when the journey is completed

:)
 
Thanks Greg. That has just changed the way I look at new knife acquisitions. I appreciate it.
 
My pleasure. Happy to be of service.

I also, today, only own / carry knives coming from designers / makers I like personally or respect as individuals.

It's a personal thing.

'Cause I consider the knives one carries to be of a personal nature.

Same with training.

I sense such thinking comes with age and personal growth / maturity.

Which is a journey all of itself.

And one which I've yet to be disappointed with:)

I enjoy your posts.

Thank you.
 
Sweet responses guys, thanks.

Mick, your post made me think of 2 more questions! Answers to questions always spawn more questions for me.

1)All thing being equal, you said th etanto works a bit better, but you don't carry one that much. Would you care to elaborate? IF not, that is cool.

2)Could you tell us in some detail about the triangle of death? I remember an old threa don the Strider forum (I may have even started it, not sure) where you talk about the triangle of death. I would really appreciate your explanation/experience of it's uses and effectiveness, especially in comparison to a curved tip like on an MT.
 
Crayola,


1. Don’t get me wrong. I have carried a ton of tantos. Everything we make, I try to carry for an extended amount of time. For personal use, I like to carry radiused blades. It all comes down to utility for me. No matter how many times I carry a knife as a weapon, I end up using it for utility. I just never have that much opportunity to stab anyone.

2. The triangle of death is the tangent point of the two cutting edges on a western tanto. (Good point Greg, thanks). If you hold the tanto in your hand, out in front of yourself, note the angle of this point. In nearly every instance, it lines up wonderfully for a vicious slash. Consider the amount of cutting edge available in the small triangle as opposed to if it was a radiused blade. I will use a Strider GB and AR for comparison. Hang on…
The GB (tanto) has just under ½” longer cutting surface. Blade length is equal. While this may seem like a small amount, look at where it is.
That length directly transfers to cut depth. But it is more than a half inch deeper cut. The difference is in the geometry. With the spear point, you will cut with the tip of the knife. Using about one inch of the blade. By design, the tanto will use about two inches of blade. It has that tangent point, leading the way through the cut like a fireteam of Batt-boys.
It is difficult to explain. You will need to check out the dynamics of your hand and knife while holding it as if to slash.



Carpe Diem


Mick



RLTW
 
Thanks for the reply Mick, you answered my questions well.

I have owned one tanto folder in the past, and really enjoyed the utility of the triangle of death. I will be making a tanto fixed blade this summer too. I pulled out my grinder to finish some knives I have on the go and grind out a practice tanto on some balsa, but my motor made a "whthhshhehhsth" sound and wouldn't start! I get it back tomorrow though, so I'll be back in business.

I wrote on the Strider forum that I was going to be making a tanto that is influenced by Striders, Hossoms, Blackwoods, and a few others. I can't wait to get going with this project.
 
I am really newbies in this triangle issue, so please bear with me:eek:

Please correct me if my understanding is not right. So, with the Tanto, the edge from 'primary tip' to the 'secondary tip'(in the form of triangle) is what it counts when it comes to cut, resulting in more effective depth.

Thanks!
 
The point we are speaking of is the actual part that would not be there if it were a blade with a radius. If you were to drop down from the tip of the knife, down to the tangent point of the actual cutting edge. Or, the point made by the two cutting edges coming together.

Mick
 
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