Temper Lines

Doug C

Doug C

Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
26,811
Is there a general consensus on the best way to etch out temper lines?And am I in the right forum.Leatherbird.
 
I use 3 part water to 1 part Ferric Chloride from Radio Shack. Neutralise it after. Works great!
 
Yup, same here.

I was told by Ed Fowler to neutralise in TPA solution. Not having that here, I use sodium bicarbonate from the supermarket as neutraliser. Seems to work fine, even on damascus, which doesn't rust like it would have otherwise.
 
TSP, baking soda (sodium bicarbonate), ammonia, Windex with ammonia, Draino, Liquid Plumber, 20 Mule team borax, even strong lye soap will all effectively neutralize the acids used for etching blades.
 
Thank you all very much!Just lining up all the ducks before I have a go at it.Leatherbird.
 
LB-

I know I had some fun at your expense before, but this is a fare question.

Etching is really only part of the process.

You need to have a good finish to start from. Ideally, you would have your blade at 1000X of finer. And a VERY VERY even finish at that. Any flaws in the blade will only show up worse when etched. Etching will not hide flaws.

Much akin to wood-working. Many folks think you can stain or even paint over flaws in wood. But that always just high-lights the flaws.

The blade HAS TO, HAS TO, HAS TO, be VERY clean prior to etching. You will want to clean it with acetone or paint thinner, and/or something like liquid ivory to make sure it is free of all dirt/grease before applying an etchant.

I used to etch in ferric for hamons (by hanging the blade down in a 5 parts distilled water to 1 part Ferric Chloride mix)... but now I prefer a solution of vinegar and dish soap. I heat it up in the microwave till it's hot, and then etch the blade using cotton pads dipped in the solution.

It's much less aggressive than ferric. It takes longer. It stinks. HOWEVER! It will bring out subtle features in a hamon that ferric won't.

IF, you use ferric, it should be a very dillute solution and a very quick etch. On some of my blades that I did in ferric, I held them in the ferric for 1-3 TEN SECOND intervals.

This is about half of the work.

This will darken the blade, and leave it with oxides all over the surface.

After neutralizing the etchant (I like Windex with ammonia as it's cheap, easy to find, and comes in a spray bottle) you need to remove the oxides.

This can be done in a myriad of ways. I prefer using very mild abrasive pastes, such as Flitz, Semi-Chrome, and the like.

The process of removing the oxides is (IMHO) every bit, if not MORE important than the etching. You can play with different finishes to come up with what really suits your fancy.

Some guys (I know Fowler does) buff before etching. If you buff a blade, you are actually "slurring" the surface. You are smearing it at a very fine level. This will create a surface that needs to be etched agressively and for longer time.

I think Ed etches for like 10 minutes or something like that in ferric.

The way I finish my blades with stones and abrasive paper, it opens up the grain of the blade, and makes it etch much differently than a buffed blade. IF I etched one in ferric for 10 minutes, it would absolutely eat into it and ruin the blade.

I feel the way Ed does it is good for edge quenched blades with some alloying elements like the 52100 he uses. He is trying to show the hardening line and give a peak at the crystalline structure of the steel.

I am trying to highlight all of the work with the thermal cycles, clay application, and finishing work... to bring out the intricate beauty that can be found in a hamon.

The way I do it is very time consuming...yet still pales to the time involved for a true and traditional Japanese polish.

Good luck with it :)
-Nick-
 
NickWheeler said:
IF I etched one in ferric for 10 minutes, it would absolutely eat into it and ruin the blade.
Click to expand...

Ruin the temper line (hammon) or ruin the blade? :p
 
NickWheeler said:
LB-

I know I had some fun at your expense before, but this is a fare question.

Etching is really only part of the process.

You need to have a good finish to start from. Ideally, you would have your blade at 1000X of finer. And a VERY VERY even finish at that. Any flaws in the blade will only show up worse when etched. Etching will not hide flaws.

Much akin to wood-working. Many folks think you can stain or even paint over flaws in wood. But that always just high-lights the flaws.

The blade HAS TO, HAS TO, HAS TO, be VERY clean prior to etching. You will want to clean it with acetone or paint thinner, and/or something like liquid ivory to make sure it is free of all dirt/grease before applying an etchant.

I used to etch in ferric for hamons (by hanging the blade down in a 5 parts distilled water to 1 part Ferric Chloride mix)... but now I prefer a solution of vinegar and dish soap. I heat it up in the microwave till it's hot, and then etch the blade using cotton pads dipped in the solution.

It's much less aggressive than ferric. It takes longer. It stinks. HOWEVER! It will bring out subtle features in a hamon that ferric won't.

IF, you use ferric, it should be a very dillute solution and a very quick etch. On some of my blades that I did in ferric, I held them in the ferric for 1-3 TEN SECOND intervals.

This is about half of the work.

This will darken the blade, and leave it with oxides all over the surface.

After neutralizing the etchant (I like Windex with ammonia as it's cheap, easy to find, and comes in a spray bottle) you need to remove the oxides.

This can be done in a myriad of ways. I prefer using very mild abrasive pastes, such as Flitz, Semi-Chrome, and the like.

The process of removing the oxides is (IMHO) every bit, if not MORE important than the etching. You can play with different finishes to come up with what really suits your fancy.

Some guys (I know Fowler does) buff before etching. If you buff a blade, you are actually "slurring" the surface. You are smearing it at a very fine level. This will create a surface that needs to be etched agressively and for longer time.

I think Ed etches for like 10 minutes or something like that in ferric.

The way I finish my blades with stones and abrasive paper, it opens up the grain of the blade, and makes it etch much differently than a buffed blade. IF I etched one in ferric for 10 minutes, it would absolutely eat into it and ruin the blade.

I feel the way Ed does it is good for edge quenched blades with some alloying elements like the 52100 he uses. He is trying to show the hardening line and give a peak at the crystalline structure of the steel.

I am trying to highlight all of the work with the thermal cycles, clay application, and finishing work... to bring out the intricate beauty that can be found in a hamon.

The way I do it is very time consuming...yet still pales to the time involved for a true and traditional Japanese polish.

Good luck with it :)
-Nick-
Click to expand...

What he said. :D
 
Nick,That Stella fighter(sold) is just beautiful,nice pix too.Is it proper to ask how much it went for?Sure I'll find out soon enough,couldn't find out how to contact you at your site.Probably something simple I just overlooked.Don't know! Am still kinda' new to this computer stuff.Don't mean to get away from temper line thread and want to thank everyone who contributed.Am confused about the traditional Japanese polish.I think it involves the manipulation of the steel being used and mucho,mucho sanding before the final polish.How'm I doin'? Leatherbird.
 
Mean't sure I'll find out soon enough if I was allowed to ask what it went for not sure I'll found out what it went for/cost.
 
NickWheeler said:
The process of removing the oxides is (IMHO) every bit, if not MORE important than the etching.
Click to expand...
Just wanted to re-emphasize this part. Thanks, Nick.



Here's what I do - like Nick, complicated and time-consuming.

  • Hand sand to 600 - perfectly flat
  • Clean with Windex
  • Clean with lukewarm water
  • Drop in a bucket of vinegar for a few hours (technically, a pre-etch, but works great)
  • Clean with acetone and 0000 steel wool(to add contrast)
  • Two or three dips in 4:1 H20:FeCl mixture; 30-60 seconds each
  • In between each dip, I clean with acetone and 0000 steel wool, then Windex with a fine grit polishing paper.
  • After the last etch, I go over the entire blade with polishing paper.

I do this because I don't like an etch where the part below the hamon is significantly darker than the part above. Plus, I'm not a big fan of the faint yellow-gray tint you get from etching in FeCl, so I scrub and scrub and scrub....:(

The interesting part about the vinegar pre-etch....this was a happy mistake. I was testing finishes - one in vinegar, one in FeCl. I left the blade in the vinegar for a few hours - pulled it out - looked funny...figured "what the heck"...wiped it clean with Windex/paper towel and stuck it straight in the FeCl mix. The two knives were identical, but the vinegar-pre-etched blade had a much more interesting etch. The hamon was darker and the part below the hamon wasn't "darker" - just what I was looking for.

Not for everybody, but seems to work for me.
 
Here's a really bad picture of the kind of thing I try to accomplish. This was taken up to 6000x compounds.

Daniel, I'm pretty sure you are working to your own desires, but did you know that many folks (collectors) look for a different tone from the martensite edge to the pearlite back? Just an FYI :)

-Nick-

morgan37ss.jpg
 
I sand to 800-1000 grit wet-dry, very lightly from 600 up, then etch for about 10 seconds, tops, in weak FeCl, then I neutralize and reseand with wet 1000 grit. Looks cool. I will try the new recipe from Nick, though. Sounds like it might make a nice vinaigrette! :D
 
Thanks, Nick. That is a great tutorial.

I found out, the hard way, that the etching "brings out" all of the mistakes on a blade. Since I am new to knifemaking, I have considered a "quick dip" in FeCl before heat treating, to help me identify problematic areas in my grind to, hopefully, correct them before I HT.

Has anyone tried this? Will it hurt the blade?
 
doesn't hurt the blade at all. I do this often to check the pattern on damascus blades.
 
Nick, I tried a version of your etching technique this weekend and it flopped, so I went back to my FeCl. I didn't use dishsoap in mine, but I spent about 5 minutes (not a long time, but it was looking bad) with regular white distilled vinegar, heated up to near boiling, and some cotton balls on a 1095 blade and all it did was splotch a few spots and make it look sort of purplish. I didn't add dishsoap, because it's a base, isn't it, and wouldn't it further dilute the vinegar?
 
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