Tempering a file question - URGENT

ib2v4u said:
Any steel at knife hardness is not going to hacksaw or file without a very special saw blade or diamond files and those would be s l o w. Do, you have a 4 1/2" grinder and some thin disks? The .045 thick disks will cut it fast. Also, if you cut a straight line 1/3 through it will snap off on the line. Just dip the steel in water every few seconds and leave some steel to grind away to get your final shape. You could also profile and bevel the blade pretty fast with a 36 grit belt. The tang area you don't have to worry about the heat much. What do you have for a grinder? With a good grinder and belts a hard file isn't going to grind all that much harder than soft steel. But, a LOT more care and time will be needed to keep it from over heating.

If you are trying to save money by using a file and don't a have good grinder or anyway to anneal and harden it properly its a hard way to go. I suggest you buy a piece of 1084, 1095, O1 or 5160. Then, cut file or grind it to shape leaving it a dime or so thick at the edge, and sanded to say 240 grit. If you get a 3' bar you will get 3 or 4 shots at coming out with a piece that looks like what you really want. Then sent it to me with return postage and I will harden it and temper it for you and send it back. Then you can finish it.

Making good knives may be many things, but, its not easy or cheap. I have a pile of at least 50 used Nickleson files and mostly they stay in that pile for a reason.
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That is the best advice so far in this thread. Start with new known annealed steel (1084 if you want to take him up on his generous offer, something air hardening like 440-C if you will be sending it to Paul Bos for HT, shape it as you want it and get it ht-d. Or you can continue in this silly pursuit of heartache and I will walk away from this thread muttering under my breath.

-Page
 
ib2v4u said:
Any steel at knife hardness is not going to hacksaw or file without a very special saw blade or diamond files and those would be s l o w. Do, you have a 4 1/2" grinder and some thin disks? The .045 thick disks will cut it fast. Also, if you cut a straight line 1/3 through it will snap off on the line. Just dip the steel in water every few seconds and leave some steel to grind away to get your final shape. You could also profile and bevel the blade pretty fast with a 36 grit belt. The tang area you don't have to worry about the heat much. What do you have for a grinder? With a good grinder and belts a hard file isn't going to grind all that much harder than soft steel. But, a LOT more care and time will be needed to keep it from over heating.

If you are trying to save money by using a file and don't a have good grinder or anyway to anneal and harden it properly its a hard way to go. I suggest you buy a piece of 1084, 1095, O1 or 5160. Then, cut file or grind it to shape leaving it a dime or so thick at the edge, and sanded to say 240 grit. If you get a 3' bar you will get 3 or 4 shots at coming out with a piece that looks like what you really want. Then sent it to me with return postage and I will harden it and temper it for you and send it back. Then you can finish it.

Making good knives may be many things, but, its not easy or cheap. I have a pile of at least 50 used Nickleson files and mostly they stay in that pile for a reason.
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That is a very generous offer. Thank you. I may take you up on that. I've got a left over piece of 5160 out at my dad's, but I can't remember how long it is. I think he also has a full stick of 440. I've been thinking that I'd like to try O-1 or 1095, though.

I have a 4x36 grinder, but my dad has a 2x72. I'm pretty sure he has some 36 grit belts too. I may have to give that a try. He also has various angle grinders, so I can try that as well.

sunshadow said:
That is the best advice so far in this thread. Start with new known annealed steel (1084 if you want to take him up on his generous offer, something air hardening like 440-C if you will be sending it to Paul Bos for HT, shape it as you want it and get it ht-d. Or you can continue in this silly pursuit of heartache and I will walk away from this thread muttering under my breath.

-Page
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HA HA! That's pretty funny stuff. I appreciate all the feedback!

I find it fascinating how much people's opinions vary on what can or cannot be accomplished with a file as stock. I would still like to give this a try to see what I can come up with. If it ends up being an exercise in futility, oh well. I realize that my results won't prove or disprove anything as I am a novice, but just for my own curiosity I think I will still give it a go. I don't plan to quit making blades any time soon, so if there is any heartache, it will be shortlived. :)

Thanks again, Matt.
 
my first knives were made from files. I at least fully annealed them then shaped them and rehardened them. Suit yourself. I was merely offering the benefit of my experience

-Page
 
sunshadow said:
my first knives were made from files. I at least fully annealed them then shaped them and rehardened them. Suit yourself. I was merely offering the benefit of my experience

-Page
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I really do appreciate it. I didn't intend any sarcasm to come across. It can be difficult to convey (and to receive) the spirit behind things when you have only text and none of the nonverbal cues. I found your statement about walking away muttering under your breath to pretty hilarious, but in a good natured kind of way. Any way, no disrespect intended.

I think I will anneal a couple of my files and give that a try. My uncle has an electric kiln that I think he'll let me borrow. I always thought it was only for pottery, but he said it is capable of getting even hotter than I will need for knives. So...now that I know that...:)
 
That kiln should also work for hardening if it has some kind of temp control or even a temp read out.

Page is a good guy and only offering perspective. It is possible to make a file into a decent knife, just not as easy as many think. Plus, I am sure he would agree that although the experience can be difficult it can also be educational. Just so many come here wanting a simple way to make a special knife they have visions of and then refuse to accept the good advice they are given,
Jim
 
Ten-four. My first knife (full convex in 5160) turned out pretty good thanks to the teachings of the good folks here. It also taught me a big lesson about handle ergonomics. :)

Will cooling in the kiln be slow enough to properly anneal or should I get a bag of vermiculite?

Thanks, Matt.
 
Ive used a lot of files for knives and hawk bits. I dont do it to find cheap steel, I do it for the fun of it and appearances. Files are indeed hard to heat treat correctly. I have specs on about 4 different brands and all have no less than 1.20% carbon, some as high as 1.30% carbon. Both well north of 1095. A file is the hardest steel to use as a hawk bit because of the welding temp difference. File steel when forged above a high orange tends to disintegrate under the hammer. Man it looks nice after the etch with the file teeth showing against the low carbon steel...
We anneal in wood ashes, works fine for us. Vermiculite may be better, never tried it. I harden file steel in a oil quench at about 1475 after a short soak..It gets screaming hard so run dont walk to the oven.I have had file steel crack after hardening just laying on the bench. I temper files at about *475-*500..When used as a hawk bit we temper to blue.
 
Kentucky said:
Ive used a lot of files for knives and hawk bits. I dont do it to find cheap steel, I do it for the fun of it and appearances. Files are indeed hard to heat treat correctly. I have specs on about 4 different brands and all have no less than 1.20% carbon, some as high as 1.30% carbon. Both well north of 1095. A file is the hardest steel to use as a hawk bit because of the welding temp difference. File steel when forged above a high orange tends to disintegrate under the hammer. Man it looks nice after the etch with the file teeth showing against the low carbon steel...
We anneal in wood ashes, works fine for us. Vermiculite may be better, never tried it. I harden file steel in a oil quench at about 1475 after a short soak..It gets screaming hard so run dont walk to the oven.I have had file steel crack after hardening just laying on the bench. I temper files at about *475-*500..When used as a hawk bit we temper to blue.
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Good stuff. Thank you! What do you mean "temper to blue"? Sorry, still learning the vernacular.
 
If you polish the steel and heat it it will start to change colors. First a light straw color changing to gold then it will move to light blue and blue. The straw color usually around 400f and the blue maybe 600f. These colors vary from steel to steel are not as reliable as a temperature unless you know your steel and process well. Plus, IMHO it is better to temper twice for 2 hours. If after the first temper you grind the decarb layer off and sand to 400 grit or so and then do the 2nd temper cycle your blade should be a dark straw color at around 475. He is going to the blue (600f?) on the hawk bit because the impact on an ax type edge gives it a beating, it also has a heavier angle so it is less apt to fold over like a thin knife edge would at that soft of temper. If a ax type edge was knife hard it would tend to chip.

If you heat the file to around 1475f and stick it in a pile of vermiculite and leave it overnite it will be about as soft as it is going to get. I know your not going to get Parks 50 to quench so I would suggest an oil like canola for the quench when you harden.
 
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If you actually get a file with 1.2% carbon (many files currently sold are only case-hardened mild steel) you would do well to read this thread
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types.
starting at "Hypereutechtic steel" 1.2% carbon is hypereutechtic. Taking a hypereutechtic steel up to annealing temps and cooling it slowly in Vermiculite will precipitate pearlite (little flat carbides that will destroy drillbits and cutting tools. You really want a spheroidize anneal

-Page
 
ib2v4u is right on. In a hawk the edge has a different geometry than a knife. Much thicker and convex for taking punishment. The edge has to be softer than a knife. Tempering by color is not an exact science. Its practice,practice.....practice. We've done it so long and so many times we can get pretty consistant results wiith it. You cant really go by those color charts as everyones eye is different.Then we only do it with axes, not knives.
 
Hello all....this is not about annealing a file to be made into a knife but it's a very interesting topic. I also have a burning question for the profesionals in here, if you don't mind. Is it possible to heat treat some steels with just oxy-acetylene torch and some oil to quench for hardness? If so, what kind of steel would be receptive or good for this method of heat treating? I'm also very interested in learning this process so would appreciate any education about it, or any links that I could learn from. Thanks again and have a nice day... kelsil
 
kelsil said:
Hello all....this is not about annealing a file to be made into a knife but it's a very interesting topic. I also have a burning question for the profesionals in here, if you don't mind. Is it possible to heat treat some steels with just oxy-acetylene torch and some oil to quench for hardness? If so, what kind of steel would be receptive or good for this method of heat treating? I'm also very interested in learning this process so would appreciate any education about it, or any links that I could learn from. Thanks again and have a nice day... kelsil
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What Page told you above is correct.

Even better than a homemade heat treat is sending your blade away for perfect professional results & allows you to use any good knife steel.

"links that I could learn from"
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-shop-with-least-tools!?p=9675927#post9675927
 
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