Tempering Chart for Common Knife Steels?

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I am not sure if this is what you are looking for but http://tidewaterblacksmiths.net/2.html has a simple chart for several different steels. ASTM has a heat treaters guide that goes into a lot more detail. Look for Tempering Processes/Technology for irons and steels. I've seen a lot more out there that kind of set between these two.
 
If only we had standardized heat treating philosophies in the knifemaking community...... note that I didn't say principles. Those are available to us all.
 
Rick Marchand said:
I think you missed the point, bud.:p
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Nope not at all.

If we can gather enough data from knifemakers on their methods and results.... then we will be able to see a bigger picture.

That is the point :)
 
Interesting, what would you do with the data? Average it out? I think it would be all over the chart. Instead, why not look to the established principles of heat treatment as your bearing in this sea of everchanging options. If you use "real" information to make your decisions, you can only grow. Misinformation is the cancer. If you begin your journey with a broken compass, the chances of you reaching your destination are greatly diminished.
 
Here is the way I see it and the best way I know how to explain why the numbers from any chart will always be slightly different from real world numbers. If Aldo took a 4' bar of steel (say 1084) and cut it into four 12" pieces and sent a piece to 4 different makers and told them to H/T it and draw it to exactly HRC 58, I think there would be a pretty good chance that you would end up with at least 3 maybe even 4 different tempering temps. There are just too many variables involved for the temps. to be the same for everybody. Keep in mind that this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
 
Rick Marchand said:
Interesting, what would you do with the data? Average it out? I think it would be all over the chart. Instead, why not look to the established principles of heat treatment as your bearing in this sea of everchanging options. If you use "real" information to make your decisions, you can only grow. Misinformation is the cancer. If you begin your journey with a broken compass, the chances of you reaching your destination are greatly diminished.
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We are looking to "established principles of heat treatment". We have those for industry and large thick pieces of steel. Lets have some of those established principles for knife sized pieces of steel that are actually going to be made into blades and their various intended uses.

Or is there no difference between what industry is doing vs knifemakers?
 
AVigil said:
Or is there no difference between what industry is doing vs knifemakers?
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Perhaps, my wording was wrong, Adam... I apologize. We are confusing principles with practices
Lets make the distinction and define the two...

Principle - A principle is a law or rule that has to be, or usually is to be followed, or can be desirably followed, or is an inevitable consequence of something
Practice - A repeated performance or systematic exercise for the purpose of acquiring skill or proficiency

I am refering to established principles of metallurgy, which is governed by physics/chemistry and is the same for everybody. The principles will always be present. We can try to establish good heat treating practices with what you are suggesting but that can only begin when everybody is in sync with the metallurgy. Unfortunately, this is a HUGE hurdle to jump.
 
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Rick Marchand said:
We can try to establish good heat treating practices with what you are suggesting but that can only begin when everybody is in sync with the metallurgy. Unfortunately, this is a HUGE hurdle to jump.
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Well said Rick.

But that hurdle will diminish to small speed bump when those who understand the "Principles" and apply them to the "Practice" put the data out there, just like any other field of study so people can find the good information easier first.
 
If people aren't familiar with the principles, they are prone to misinformation. They are simply taking the maker on his word without knowing the meaning behind those words. There is unnecessary complication and unjustified conclusions present in the knifemaking communitiy(with regard to metallurgy). How do you weed out the bad advice? With education, not more secret recipes. I wouldn't want anyone to blindly follow my HT regime because they feel I get good results. I want folks to look critically at my practices and understand how the reasoning behind them coincides with metallurgical principle. If they are illiterate to the science, my reasons are no more valid than.... well, somebody "less than" scientific.

David... I hope we haven't taken this thread to far off course.
 
Rick Marchand said:
.... How do you weed out the bad advice? With education, not more secret recipes.
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That is why knifemakers who understand the principles of metallurgy need to publish their application of it to knifemaking. That would contribute to the education and secret recipes would no longer be secret.

Establish guidelines specifically for knifemakers heat treatment should be available. And it should be able to be done because there are many who readily claim to know when other makers are not doing it correctly :)

When I need heat treatment info I go specifically to Kevin Cashens website. Maybe more knifemakers will put up information about what they have experienced... but then again maybe they are relying on Kevin as well.
 
Nah, it's not that far afield, Rick. Thinking about what you said though, about getting testing done. I'm at the point in my knifemaking "career" where I want to know what's happening to my steel and what results I'm getting from a more scientific viewpoint.
 
I was as frustrated as David about the inconsistancies floating around the knifemaking community. I found someone who was making knives that performed the way I wanted and copied their process. The knives functioned well and I had a formula to get consistent with. As I read more into metallurgy, I realized that some of the steps I took were redundant or even damaging. So, I sought out another maker to emulate. This process repeated itself. If I was lucky enough to hang on someone who knew what they were doing, I was hardpressed to be able to explain what or why it was so. Finding Kevin was a blessing and a curse(Ha!) There was no simply answer with him, so I had to re-evaluate my questions. With Kevin, you don't ask for a straight up answer because he is not the one who has your answer. He can point you to the principles and help you understand them but you have to form your own conclusions based that knowledge. There are a few things Kevin and I disagree on... but it is his own fault for cultivating critical thought in me. The curse came in the realization that everytime I learned something new, it just solidified the fact of how little I know! I owe Kevin for igniting that spark.
 
Well, all I know from this post is I hardly know anything. Just when I thought I was getting pretty good too (smile). I'm going to take Rick's suggestion and use my own methods, test performance (as I'm doing now), and additionally get my blades RC tested by a local machine shop in town. As for really useful charts for knifemaking, I suppose if it could be done, someone would have already done it. In any case, I'm leave it to smarter men than myself.
 
Rick Marchand said:
I was as frustrated as David about the inconsistancies floating around the knifemaking community. I found someone who was making knives that performed the way I wanted and copied their process. The knives functioned well and I had a formula to get consistent with. As I read more into metallurgy, I realized that some of the steps I took were redundant or even damaging. So, I sought out another maker to emulate. This process repeated itself. If I was lucky enough to hang on someone who knew what they were doing, I was hardpressed to be able to explain what or why it was so. Finding Kevin was a blessing and a curse(Ha!) There was no simply answer with him, so I had to re-evaluate my questions. With Kevin, you don't ask for a straight up answer because he is not the one who has your answer. He can point you to the principles and help you understand them but you have to form your own conclusions based that knowledge. There are a few things Kevin and I disagree on... but it is his own fault for cultivating critical thought in me. The curse came in the realization that everytime I learned something new, it just solidified the fact of how little I know! I owe Kevin for igniting that spark.
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Rick,

I replaced "Religion" for the words "Knifemaking or knives" in that last post of yours made me laugh :)

I hear what you are saying but if guidelines can be made for heat treatment in industry then they can be also made for knifemaking.
 
I hope no one minds, but this post seems to have gone as far as it can. It anyone cares to pursue this topic firther they can open a new post. I think it time to close it. Thanks to everyone who took the time to follow along, and to those who shared their thoughts. I thought it was interesting, and a bit of an eyeopener.
 
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