tempering question

Joined
Dec 29, 2006
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435
when tempering a blade using a kitchen oven, would you first put the blade in the oven, then turn it on, or preheat the oven and place the blade in the hot oven? also, when the time limit is up, do you let the blade sit in the oven until everything is totally cool, or do you take it out of the oven hot? or does none of it matter? =)

specifically 5160, but i bought some 1080/L6/pure nickel damascus today to make a pretty little EDC and don't want to screw it up!

thanks!
heath
 
I always pre-heat the oven and then let the blade cool to room temp in the oven. After quenching I do not want the blade to cool off any more then is has to so it goes into a pre-heated oven. I turn on the oven before I go out and HT so it has 15-20 minutes to warm up.
 
and what specifically happens if the steel comes down to room temp for tempering? If i am heat treating off site (thanks Bruce!) and tempering in another location, i can get there within 10 minutes, but i need to clean a little scale off first before the kitchen oven. how big of a problem is that?
heath
 
It isn't critical but I would preheat and even use a brick or two to even out the temperature [less fluctuation].Just wash off the oil with hot detergent [makes wife happy], temper and cool any way you want since nothing happens to the steel as it cools from temper.
 
I use a pre-heated oven and just shut it off and go to bed after the 2 hour temper. If I am in a hurry, I just quench it in the sink to cool it off. If it was going to warp, it would have done it by then already. As mete said, all the changes are over for that cycle once it has been held at X temperature for X time. The subsequent temper cycles are to temper the martensite that converted from austenite the last temper cycle. After two cycles most all has been converted. If doing cryo, give a snap temper at 200F right after quench (bring it down to about 100F first) and then do the cryo. Follow by two regular temper cycles.
Stacy
 
Once Mete speaks what can be said, but get into the practice of having your tempering oven pre-heated before quench. Allow blade to air cool no further than 'hand warm' (a point just at where it is not a discomfort to hold); place in pre-heated temper immediately. I prefer a toaster oven with a large enough chamber but not so large a chamber as a kitchen oven. I suggest at the very least one trusted oven thermometer within the chamber positioned close to blade. Monitor occasionally.

rlinger
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Mete. You got me there... Where do you use a brick? On the bottom of the oven and place the knife on that?

Lang
 
Martensite transformation produces high stresses.If you don't relieve them by tempering they may relieve themselves by cracking !! ...Put the bricks on the rack and lay the blade on the bricks .Roger's got a good point always check temperature with a thermometer.
 
Mete, i have talked to some guys that generally work 52100 and 5160 and part of there process is multiple quenches with 24 hours in between. i have done this on three blades so far and i haven't had a cracked blade yet. I do seem to be getting better cutting blades but that is just in my unscientific tests. I guess my question is if the aren't cracking what is going on?
 
Erik, "aren't cracking "? they must be doing it wrong ! Some of the proceedures leave me confused ! Some are hardly scientific and Jared is right - no need to wait 24 hours ! The cracking thing has a number of variables and to HT in a less than optimum way is to gamble .
 
Hey thanks for the brick trick tip Mete, it's never occured to me to have a themal mass in the oven to help it maintain an even temp. I not only use a thermometer in the oven (it's amazing how far off ovens can be) I use two so they can be calibrated against themselves.
 
I must admit to being a bit in the middle of two directions being approached here. First I must say that although multiple quenching is not my cup of tea I can live with folks doing what they feel works, but the 24 hours in between is nothing less than nonsense that undermines whatever credibility the technique has to begin with, this is not directed at you Erik as I doubt you would claim this as your own invention, but instead a criticism of the popular information pool you are doing your best to work with, and being victimized by. Mete or I or any number of folks with a even minimal grasp of the mechanisms at work could give good and sound reasons why there is nothing there, those on the other side for the most part can only offer that this is what they heard they should do, and the ones they heard it from mostly only have "well I did it one time and it seemed to make a difference". You know one day I ate oatmeal and juice for breakfast and that day all of my forge welds came out perfect, perhaps the secret to perfect damascus is oatmeal and O.J. ? Or perhaps, if I make the effort and take the time to look a little deeper and analyze it, I would see that I normally skip breakfast, and that day I finally had the energy to be at full speed in my work. After realizing this I can dispense with turning every little thing I did that day into my firm knifemaking ritual and focus on the exact things I did that day that resulted in a tighter solid state weld.

Now I am going to flip flop on you folks so I can p!$$ everybody off. On the other hand I have pointed out before that I do not see the benefits in tempering untransformed austenite, so why the rush before Mf? The time to temper simple steels (stainless alloys not included) is when Mf is reached, doing it before could get you more retained austenite than what you need. "hand warm" is a feeling not a temperature, hand warm to you will definitely be different for me. Every steel has its own Mf so picking a given temperature to stop the quench at and applying it to all would be as inappropriate as using one austenitizing temp for all. If you are going to interrupt the quench before Mf do it at Ms and get the benefits of martempering. Spec sheets recommend this because much of industry could work with huge varying cross sections with a bazillion little splines comming off, not a simple flat piece of steel with an edge, under the former circumstances to heck with retained austenite, lets keep that $$$$ part in one piece for now.

Simple steels should not see any significant gain in hardness from freezing since they are not prone to retained austenite, I have often said that if you are seeing noticeable jumps in hardness from freezing 10XX something was definitely not right in your initial heat treat, tempering untransformed austenite before Mf could be reached would be one of those "somethings".

I work mostly with O1 and L6, if ever there were two simple alloys that will come apart by waiting on the temper these are it, in martempering I always let them go to room temp and then often cool them even more in cold water before the first temper, I have never cracked a blade doing this and I can give the actual reasons as to why if needed.

Flip flop again and I can say that I have blown blades apart by quenching all the way to Mf and then waiting overnight to temper, the poor little blades simply cannot handle the forces exerted by all that BCT (body centered tetragonal) martensite for extended periods. If you got all your carbon into solution and locked it there, you have forced atoms to assume positions they do not want, history has shown us how much power can be involved when man starts forcing atoms to do things they don't want to do. No hammer, no fire, no press or rolling mill can compete with strain of that magnitude and if you wait to relieve it something will have to give. To the folks that regularly get away with waiting days to temper and think this paragraph is hogwash, I could give the standard line that you have been lucky, or I could point out that a very good explanation is within this paragraph if you reason it out. Insufficient austenization (too cool or too short) will not get all available carbon into solution. Insufficient austenization done repeatedly will effectively take carbon out of solution by segregation so of course the blade can handle the wait to temper, not much BCT stacking to convert to begin with. I could go into what happens when plate martensite habit planes impinge on each other, or the effects of increased dislocations, but I think we have more than enough to get the point already.

I guess what I am saying is that we knifemakers need to abandon the comfort of over simplifying this stuff, it is never as simple as it may seem, as this two pager post demostrates all too well:(

724wd, I would preheat to let the oven even out and stop it heavy fluctuations to regulate before putting the blades in, better yet as mete pointed out with the brick or a couple larger piece of metal for the blades to go between preheated with the oven and would providing a nice thermal mass to even things out. Temper for at least an hour and a half to two hours. Take the blades out and let them cool, heck I quench them to get to work quicker. I personally wouldn't turn the oven off because I will want to temper them again as soon as the blades are cool or I have done some hardness tests. I often do three tempers and have very consistent observations and records to show the homogenizing benefits of it, on the last temper just shut the oven off and walk away. Extended times at reasonable temperatures seems to be more beneficial than shorter times and higher temperatures.
 
Kevin,

I would like to pick you brain on a couple of points:

1. It seems to be common practice to temper as soon as possible after the quench. I've even read suggestions that the part should go in the temper oven as soon as you can stand to hold it in your hand. For most air hardening steels where Mf is somewhere below RT this does not seem to make sense. Why not let it get all the way to RT.

2. I've also observed that some of the sources that support "start the temper as soon as you can hold it" also suggest that you can go from the quench to a sub-zero treatment for 6 hours and then temper.
I've noticed that Crucible suggests that the sub-zero treatments be done after the first temper but there are still some spec sheets that call for the freeze before the first temper.
It just does not compute that the part should not sit at RT over night but that it can sit in LN all night without a problem.

I don't mean to hijack this thread but I just felt the need to ask.

Thanks,

Jim
 
jlmetcalf, you're pointing out some of the mystery of it ! For those who want to reduce the risks when doing cryo there is a "flash " or "snap" temper of 300 F before cryo. This cuts the risk but doesn't temper enough to stabilize the retained austenite .Always after cryo you must temper. Two additional tempers [three for the most complex steels] ,two hours minimum each time.Remember that proper austenitizing temperature is the most important variable .Never attempt to use cryo to make up for excessive austenitizing temperature !!! Some of the answer to your first question is experience - some steels are more sensitive to the problems than others .
 
kevin and mete (and all of you, really!), here is the situation. Bruce Bump has accepted my plea for help in heat treating. his house is about 10 minutes from my moms, 20 from my dads, 3 hours from mine. he has generously offered to let me use his HT oven if i can temper on my own. 5160 steel, two blades, look like this...
IMG_7043B.jpg

Since bruce is willing to help me HT, we know that part is right. now, i need to clean some of the anti-scale compound/oil off the blade. the blade is, by this time, at room temperature or close to it. i take it as quickly as i can to my mom's house and put it in her preheated oven for 2 hours (400 degrees, right?). it is a brand new stove last year, so temperature should be fairly close. i have a thermometer, too. take the blade out of the hot oven and let it come to RT. once at RT, put it back in the oven for a second 400 degree, 2 hour cycle. does this sound like what you guys would do in my situation?
heath
 
Mete,

I know that flash tempers are sometimes used but the point I was making is that some data sheets recommend that you go right to the freeze.

1. Crucible's sheet for 154CM: "The freezing treatment is most effective right out of the quench.."

2. Uddeholm's sheet for D2: "Immediately after quenching the piece should be sub-zero treated.."

I use a good bit of D2 and I have also determined that I get the best results by not using a flash temper before the cryo.

So, I guess the question is: do air hardening steels such as d2 which have high "safety in hardening" ratings really need to be tempered directly after the quench or does that precaution best apply to steels that have a more drastic quench?

Thanks for all the good info,

Jim
 
724wd, this is what I would do in your situation. Heat the blade to 1525F and soak for at least 8-10 minutes before quenching into a medium speed oil. I would not quench all the way to the oil temperature however, I would interrupt the quench at around 400F. (after the vibration stops you have pulled the blade out at around the right temperature if it is coated with oil with light very light wisps of vapor coming off). Put the blade in a vice and let it cool in the air until cold to the touch. This will approximate a marquench/martemper and will provide a much more stable condition than if you oil quenched all the way to ambient. If it is any consolation, I do every blade I make with a martempering technique of some sort and enjoy the benefits thoroughly. After this method you should be safe to take your time driving to your nearest oven to temper in, but don't get too relaxed because that draw is still very important.

What is going on here is the martempering effect known as "auto-tempering". Since the cooling below Ms (around 400-450F) is in the air and much more gradual, you will have the opportunity to form as much as 40% of your martensite while the blade is still dropping through temperatures capable of tempering the blade, this will allow a snap tempering effect on the martensite almost as soon as it forms. Very pleasant gains in impact toughness can be gained this way, but more importantly for your application a serious reduction in strain and the stress factors involved.

You can try any number of solutions to your dilemma but this is how I would handle it.
 
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