Tempering Question

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Nov 20, 2008
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I've read that some guys temper their knives up to three times, letting them air cool between 1 hour cycles. Is this really necessary? I admit I'm a little confused as to what is the optiminum process. Can you fellas enlighten me?

Thanks,

Dave
 
For simple steels like 1080 one temper is all that's needed. For the most complex like the stainless knife steels three is a good number.We usually suggest 2 hours for each temper. Cooling after temper means that the retained austenite will be transformed to UNtempered martensite which will have to be tempered. Cryo will transform more retained austenite which again has to be tempered.
 
Mete, what's a good tempering cycle for 5160? One two hour cycle?What's the optimum temp for this steel?

Dave
 
450-500 F should get you about 55-59 HRc.

Mete does the 450 temper equal the RC 59 and the 500 equals to the 55. Is that right? A friend was telling me that I need to start trying some 5160 to learn to forge on with.
 
mete is doing the same wise thing that I do, as well as what industry does, in giving a range for tempering vs. hardness numbers. Since what happens in the soaking heat and quench will greatly influence what tempering temperature will result in what hardness. Thus it is a very risky thing to ever rely on a set recipe like "425F will equal 58HRC. And this is perhaps the best reason of all to do multiple tempers, it allows you to monitor the progress and walk in the exact hardness you want by bumping up the temp incrementally. I have also found a homogenizing effect on the hardness readings with multiple temper cycles, giving a more even final hardness throughout.
 
With simple carbon steels, multiple, longer tempering cycles are basically insurance...(from my understanding, you cannot temper for too long, as long as you do not over-heat)
That said, I use a 385-400f temper for 5160, but I haven't rockwell tested these blades, I tend to rely on the brass rod flex test instead. I haven't had one chip at these temps. 450-500 seems a bit high for 5160.
 
GHEzell, That's good to hear, because I've been tempering 5160 at 400 degrees for a one hour cycle. I've gotten good results so far, but not sure what Rc hardness I'm getting.

Dave
 
After you harden/quench do you immediately have to go into a tempering cycle or can you let it cool to ambient? I have 4 blades in 1095 that I’m going to shadetree heat treat and I’d rather temper them in a batch after they have been cleaned up.
 
Tempering should be immediate as you must relieve the quenching stresses to prevent cracking.Most steels are cooled to room temperature before temper .
 
To elaborate on metes post,
Immediate means as soon as is practical ( not necessarily withing seconds or minutes). When a blade comes out of the quench, it is under extreme internal stress. It is also composed of very brittle untempered martensite. It can shatter, or crack easily, sometimes just sitting there, but surely if it is struck or dropped. The sooner it gets into the temper oven, the better. If doing several blades,set each aside laying flat on the bench until all are done. Carefully and gentle wash off all oil and put the batch into the oven to temper. Minutes or even an hour or two isn't necessarily a death sentence for the blade, but leaving around for days or weeks is asking for trouble.

( For plain carbon steels) When steel is quenched, the austenite that formed at 1400-1500F (called the A1 point) is converted to martensite. This conversion starts at about 400-450F ( called the Ms). It finishes somewhere between 200F and room temperature ( called the Mf). Thus, the steel must drop to room temperature before temper, so the conversion can be completed .The small amount of austenite that remains ( retained austenite) is converted when the steel is heated back up to near the start point again and then cooled back to room temperature. This new small amount of martensite is untempered, which is why you do two temper cycles. The second cycle tempers out the new martensite, and makes sure that the temper is evenly distributed.

(Note: On complex alloy steels, like stainless, the Mf can be 100F below zero. It takes a cryo treatment and two or three tempers to convert all the austenite to martensite. This is why cryo is recommended for such steels.)

As to temper times. Yes, you can temper with a torch in one or two minutes by drawing the blade spine and watching the colors, but it will be a very uneven and incomplete temper.A proper temper takes time.
The movement of atoms in steel is rapid at 1500F, but very slow at 400F. It takes at least an hour or more to allow the changes in structure to occur in the steel to get a good temper. The second temper finishes the job. While one ,one hour temper will do most of the job - two , two hour temper cycles is a much better standard.
Tempering is the movement of atoms, and as said, that takes time. The temperature allows this to happen, so the temper cycle is a function of time and temperature. Raise the temperature and it happens faster, do it longer and it happens more. Of the two, temperature is the active factor. The ratio of temperature to time in activity is about 10:1. That means a small increase in temperature will have ten times the impact on the hardness than a moderate increase in time. For practical purposes, assuming the temperature to be constant, a four hour temper would not appreciably lower the hardness ( maybe one point, max), but a ten degree increase in the temperature can affect it 1-2 points. This is why knowing the true temperature swings of your oven is important. If your home oven is set on 400F, that is the average that it is at. It may heat up to 425F and drop to 390F before the heat cuts back on during each heat/cool cycle.

Stacy
 
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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652704&highlight=oven+muffle

That thread is one I posted of an experiment I did on a oven tempering muffle.

I think in a pinch, if one didn't have an air cushioned cookie sheet, one could use a small rack or even a piece of expanded metal in the bottom of the cake pan with a layer of aluminum foil over top of that, then put in the knives and cover the pan with a sheet of foil.

Knifemakers lasagne.


Note; it took about 1.5 hours just for the knives to come up to temp so I'd recommend 2.5 hours temper using the muffle, I typically forge about 8 or 10 knives at a time so I do them all in one shot for efficiency and wait to temper at the same time that I am cooking a roast or chicken or something for even more efficiency.

You should be able to find a $10.00 multimeter with thermocouple to monitor your temps, Highly recommended.
 
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