Tenting and lightning

[Knut]

From time to time when tenting, especially in the mountains, thunder and lightning can be quite heavy.When it seems very heavy and never ending I ask my self: Am I safe in here, or am I safer outside?
I usually put my tent on flat ground, don`t we all? It is often the highest point within maybe 30 to 100 feet.
Tents are usually in nylon materials with aluminum poles, and I think: These aluminum poles are they.......you know?
I am not afraid of the thunder people, just the lightning.
Anyone got the right answer or any experience on the matter?

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Knut

 

Prayer seems to help

 

[DM Driscoll]

Aside from the dubious value, but undeniable humor of the first reply

, I would only ask why you pitch your tent on the highest feature anyways? The highest local elevation is to avoided (obviously) and in your boreal environment (if below treeline) I might also recommend you avoid standing/camping below large poplar trees, especially Balsam Poplar, Cottonwood, etc. (Populus spp.) as they have a very high water content & reputation for attracting lightning.

Regards, Dudley Driscoll

 

[Stryver]

The idea of camping under a tree is rather silly, and I hope that no one here had that kind of upbringing. For me, most of the forests I camped in growing up were homogenous, and there was no point in staying away from the cottonwoods (which grew in the bottom of the river beds anyways where i grew up) because all the trees in any area were the same. _Generally_ speaking, there is a 'cone of safety' around extremely tall trees, starting at about their height away from their trunk, and extending to twice their height, where it is very unlikely you will be affected by lightning. This is a general rule, and applies only to the taller trees in an area. You cannot sue me if it does not work and you die anyways.

For me, I worry little about lightning if I pitch my tent with forethought. I have worried about hail though. In fact, I have cowered under my cot wondering whether or not the 1 1/2 inch hail was going tho punch through the BSA issue canvas tents. I was on my time off, all the other counselors had other scouts to worry about, I had just myself. It's so much easier when you worry for someone else...

Back to lightning, I know I have hidden frequently under convienent rocks. I've been told that rocks, specifically thouse near a cliff edge or other promiscuous outcropping, are a bad idea to hide under. I may agree with this in theory, but I will still feel safer under a rock, especially when I notice the lightning strikes are under a mile away...

Stryver, who likes the idea of finding a rock to hide under...

 

[Knut]

Thank you for your replies so far.

I should have written that I usually camp over the treeline, often 3 to 10 ours walk from the nearest tree. So hiding under or near one is not optional.In fact, sometimes it is hard enough to find a rock higher than the tent.
I have a igloo tent, and they are not that high. Of course finding a spot where nearby topography is to my advantage is important. But then we are often talking about ground only a few feet over the tent.
Is this enough?
Are the aluminum poles crossed over my head increasing the risk, decreasing it, or are they of no importance at all?

 

[CAman]

Aluminum does attract lightning. Two things you can do:
1) Buy as low of a tent as possible.
2) Stick trekking poles in the ground away from the tent so they attract lightning instead of your tent. Heard about this but never tried it.
-CAman

 

Lightning is unpredictable - period.

Having said that, I won't tie a jungle hammock to a tall tree or even pitch a tent at the base.

Setting up in low ground may be just as deadly as high ground, especially if the area is prone to flooding.

We've been on huge lakes in dugout canoes during the middle of lightning storms in the Amazon, with lightning literally crashing into trees at the water's edge. Scary as Hell, but what are you going to do about it? You can only paddle so fast, and even at that, the stuff is so unpredictable that you're just as apt to get hit in one spot as the other. Of course I ain't climbing no 200 foot tree and hold a tent pole in the sky either

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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com

 

[not2sharp]

Lightning is very unpredictable. It can strike from above (actually the potential builds up from ground level), travel along/under the ground, or travel down/up a water route. I don't think the aluminum poles will add very much to the probability of a strike. They have very little mass and are not very well grounded. I would be more worry about camping on very exposed ground where the underlying rock is rich in iron content (note rusty red discoloration); and even more so if I wasn't sleeping on a full length insolated plastic pad).

 

[Doc Ron]

Currently there is only about one lightning death per two million people per year in the U.S. Over 92 years of record keeping the number has been as high as 6 per million... Of course stats don't mean much when the ground is being blasted near you.

If you locate a low area, not the bottom of a canyon, and stay away from tall trees your chances of being hit are vanishingly small. Lightning has no way to find you. What does happen is an ionized channel develops that becomes the path for the lightning. A lot of steel can help to create this channel but it is not likely.

The tent, unless it is on top of a hill or under the tallest tree, is not any more of a hazard than laying naked in the same spot. Loof around you for sign of previous hits.

One year I had a gang of students and as we walked across a large meadow in the Sierra, a summer thunder shower started to develop a couple of miles away. We ran like hell and just made it to the safety of a shallow canyon when it hit. It blew the hell out of trees just a hundred feet away. Ground charges can kill you so I had everyone sitting on their foam pads under ponchos. No problems. After the storm passed we were sitting around and a ranger came by. He'd seen the whole thing and we talked about it. He reached into his pocket and pulled out a mass of melted coins. They'd been in his pocket several years earlier when he was caught in the same meadow. He was hit in the head. When he woke up he had 3rd degree burns on his leg, and his skull was showing where the bolt had whacked him. His shoes were melted. He said that the majority of the energy went down his wet clothing to ground. His partner saw the whole thing and they airevaced him. He had a few problems after that but was pretty much healed.

Two years ago our horse outfitter lost three animals (a horse and two mules) to one bolt that hit the lead horse, travelled down the lead line and killed the two mules. Four people were airevaced. The rider of the lead horse was scared ****less but survived with no injuries. They were on a ridge line when it hit.

Several folks were killed on Mt. Whitney a few years ago as they hid INSIDE a stone building on the summit.

Lee Trevino (sp?) the golfer has been hit several times by lightning.

A baseball team on field was killed by one bolt when the strike followed the base line chalk.

Six elephants were killed by one bolt in 1997 (I think).

I worry more about automobile accidents.

Ron




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Learn Life Extension at:

http://www.survival.com ]

 

Ron makes a good point about looking for previous hits. Contrary to popular belief, lightning will strike the same place more than once.

As far as golfers, this is suppose to be one of the sports with the highest potentials for lightning strikes.

For all you golfers out there...you know how hard it is to hit a 2 iron. A famous golfer once said when you have a 2 iron in a thunderstorm, hold it as high up as possible because even God can't hit one.

Lightning scares the T-total sh** out of me. I'll handle poisonous snakes, wrestle alligators, and fight butch lesbians, but when it comes to lightning, I'm a complete wimp.

Jeff

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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com

 

[Doc Ron]

I'm with you Jeff. When the blasting starts my pucker factor goes real high. "I am not a conductor, I am not a conductor...." Thunderstorm mantra....

Butch lesbians? Jeese man... we gotta talk

Ron

------------------
Learn Life Extension at:

http://www.survival.com ]

 

Hey Ron, this is a little off the thread's topic but I just saw on your forum where you, Rob Simonich, and Mike Fuller of TOPS are doing a joint venture on some outdoor gear. Cool!

Finally got to meet Rob at SHOT...helluva guy and they definitley come no better than Mike Fuller. This should be a good venture with folks who have the experience to know what's needed in this market. Glad to see it happening.

Keep us posted. - Jeff

------------------
Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com



[This message has been edited by JeffRandall (edited 01-23-2000).]

 

[DM Driscoll]

Really Stryver,

Come now...surely you don't believe I (or a strangely anonymous 'someone') was suggesting hanging around under a solo tree (in clearing on top of a knoll?) during lightning yet you then make the excuse that you always camped under cottonswoods while growing up.
"For me, most of the forests I camped in.."
My point is that most outdoor travellers will be frequently camping under FOREST cover w/o a convenient or desired clearing & might make the simple precaution of avoiding poplars if possible - in my region, aspen are also prone to heart rot which frequently sees a 2-3m top section snap off in high wind & drop to the ground.

Good on you for the 'safe' cone.

Regards Dudley

 

[Stryver]

Dudley:

I prefer a hammock actually, and really dislike cottonwoods for the flooding potential... I generally take my hammock, and find the two largest ponderosa (Actually, just the two largest trees, I spent 5 summers at a camp that had 3 junipers, one small grove of aspen, and some willows the rangers wife had planted, aside from the forest of ponderosa). I prefer the ponderosa growing just on the downside of one of our beautiful mesa's, so I'm mere feet from the solid rockface, strung between two trees jutting several stories into the sky. I prefer my trees to be the only significant flora in the area, with the exception of the poison ivy beneath me old enough to have growth rings. The cliff face is better if it has a large crack in it for local fauna to dwell, and far better if it houses the one of the several beehives living amongst our cliffs.

This done, I feel much more comfortable if I tie my hammock off to the old, dead branch on the side of the tree (Who cares if ponderosas have a habit of rotting out the insides of their branches while they are still alive, this one's old and dead, and undoubtedly better seasoned than the gree trunk) and string my tarp off to the other side, so I get a good view of the stars, and stake it down in the ant hill. I hate ants, it sure is fun to drive a stake in their house. And to see them run around crazy-like afterwards, so much fun...

Then, I just settle down, and watch the evening thunderstorm roll in across the prairie, viewing the flashes leaping from cloudtop to cloudtop with awe as I drift off to sleep, dreaming of the porcupine I treed up the ponderosa at my feet the day before, and how he'll look staked out in the ranger's woodshed tomorrow when I tell him I found one.


Stryver,

 

[jrf]

deleted.

[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 12-26-2000).]