Terminology Question

Blaster-6

Blaster-6

Knife Engraver / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
107
I want to make sure I'm speaking correctly... as well as understanding the processes. Correct me both in terminology and my thought process if needed.

I'm going to try making some blades from an old 10" Dewalt cabinet saw blade. Assuming it's hardened from the factory I want to soften it up through annealing (or is it normalization) by heating to red hot then allowing to air cool slowly. One to three times...? From there I'll hand shape then harden and temper - bringing to red hot them quenching in oil, temper in an oven.

Thx in advance. Been engraving knives for years, but only have recently started trying to work metal
 
I'm sure you will get more detailed replies soon, but as far as terminology goes:
You are looking to anneal the steel, which roughly speaking is done by heating past critical and slowly cooling, more slowly than air cooling. With files, I bury them in a nice bed of coals in a campfire and alow them to cool overnight as it burns out.
Normalizing is the process you described, which is more to release stress from forging and returning the steel back to its original state.
If you are set on trying to use a piece of hardened unknown steel, you want to anneal first to remove the previous heat treat. Make your knife. Normalize if needed. Heat treat.
 
Nice... I guess by bladetards you're talking about the professional knife makers on this board who take their time at no cost to help out Noobs like the original poster and myself teaching remedial metallurgy. Yes those folks might advise to not use a saw blade that may be good steel or could be mild Steel with carbide teeth or who knows what. but instead use an appropriate known Steel. So that after hours and hours of filing and sanding you won't have a paperweight but instead an actual knife. Yeah, those people are the worst.[emoji6]
 
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Focus boys, focus. I'm practicing. Learning metal. Making mistakes, learning stuff, gathering data points... A saw blade is all the metal I have at this point, seen some videos of folks making some nice knives from used blades. My small trashcan forge is operational, files and angle grinder at the ready, and several other suboptimal metal working tools ready to go... so... until I get some O1 to really work with I'm going to attempt to shape my first blades from a saw blade, just for practice, just for fun. Mr Carlson thanks for the help. Anyone else with tips, tricks, warnings, corrections on my usage of terminology feel free to chime in (I haven't even attempted to slaughter my use of martinsite and the other "sites" at this point in my metalurgical career!!!). Thanks again in advance!
 
Blaster-6 said:
Focus boys, focus. I'm practicing. Learning metal. Making mistakes, learning stuff, gathering data points... A saw blade is all the metal I have at this point, seen some videos of folks making some nice knives from used blades. My small trashcan forge is operational, files and angle grinder at the ready, and several other suboptimal metal working tools ready to go... so... until I get some O1 to really work with I'm going to attempt to shape my first blades from a saw blade, just for practice, just for fun. Mr Carlson thanks for the help. Anyone else with tips, tricks, warnings, corrections on my usage of terminology feel free to chime in (I haven't even attempted to slaughter my use of martinsite and the other "sites" at this point in my metalurgical career!!!). Thanks again in advance!
Click to expand...
Another bladetard chiming in. Use a known metal. You can't gather data points if you don't know what you're working with. Send me your address and I'll send you a piece of Aldo's 1084 and you can make a real knife. All your saw blade is going to give you is a knife like object.
 
Thanks for the generous offer. I'm putting in an order with NJ Steel Baron this week for some O1 so I'll have some known quantities to test soon. I'm using the saw blade to test my home made forge burner and set up. I just came in from a burn and can already see I'm going to have to make some changes, Got a hot spot and heat distribution isn't what I thought it'd be. Not terrible but wasn't what I'd thought. Using the saw blade to get some practice shaping as well. Not planning on getting a keen blade but again, practice. If you do have an overabundance of decent stock lying around drop me a PM and I'll give you some cash to ship it this way. Again, thanks for the offer and info!
Thanks y'all!

PS - Can we keep the "bladetard" crap to a minimum on my thread. Give the respect which is due to others. Thanks again!
 
Lieblad said:
Fair warning,
No doubts a bunch of bladetards will chime in claiming its daft to use sawblade steel.
Just smile & nod...
Click to expand...

And some will deliberately steer you wrong

dewalt-dw3577-general-purpose-circular-saw-blade.jpg

old-sawmill-blade-betty-depee.jpg



NOT the same.

One is current production unhardenable stainless steel like your kitchen sink with brazed on carbide inserts.
One is mono steel where the teeth were filed and set because the whole blade was heatreatable.
 
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As a died in the wool bladetard, I would not suggest using a10" Dewalt saw blade to make a knife. You certainly can't anneal it the way described. It will likely be a waste of time as a blade, too.

Lieblad ( interesting name - lie blade?) must have info or experience that the bladesmiths and metallurgists here don't.
 
Blaster-6 said:
Focus boys, focus. I'm practicing. Learning metal. Making mistakes, learning stuff, gathering data points... A saw blade is all the metal I have at this point, seen some videos of folks making some nice knives from used blades. My small trashcan forge is operational, files and angle grinder at the ready, and several other suboptimal metal working tools ready to go... so... until I get some O1 to really work with I'm going to attempt to shape my first blades from a saw blade, just for practice, just for fun. Mr Carlson thanks for the help. Anyone else with tips, tricks, warnings, corrections on my usage of terminology feel free to chime in (I haven't even attempted to slaughter my use of martinsite and the other "sites" at this point in my metalurgical career!!!). Thanks again in advance!
Click to expand...

I say go for it . Today most circular saw blade is 15n20 , especially those that cut with carbid or diamond teeth ....You don t need to aneal this steel , good file will work fine . They are not full hard because they must not break and kill someone . Before HT blade you made you can try to HT small piece of same steel ...I make many knives from saw blade . Most are for granite / with diamond / and are 15n20 steel , but i made some knive too from circular wood saw in same way . .... ginding with file and then HT ....Just bring steel to red / about 800 celsius / and quench in some oil .....good luck :thumbup:
This knives are 15n20 steel and is so easy to HT in home , the upper two are already hardened .

21an504.jpg


from wood saw , not finished yet ....

2mx3n75.jpg
 
Large 20-60" saw mill blades may be some alloy similar to 15N20, but modern circular saw blades for 7-18" shop saws and hand held skill saws are not. The blades that don't have carbide teeth are mostly M2 or a similar HSS alloy, and the ones with carbide teeth are generally low carbon, high chromium alloy. They are designed for toughness, not hardness. If a blade is made from one, the annealing and HT will probably be poor, and the edge holding will be very low.

I had a bunch of saw blade steel analyzed many years back, and some came back with less than .10% carbon. It was basically 1008 with 12% chrome added. Other circular saw alloys have chrome and molybdenum in the mix ... but don't need or want much carbon.
 
Lieblad said:
Fair warning,
No doubts a bunch of bladetards will chime in claiming its daft to use sawblade steel.
Just smile & nod...
Click to expand...

There was time this place went through a difficult phase where it became very contentious. We've all done a good job of becoming more civil and respectful, it has become the new norm. So let's not try to stir up shit.



To the OP, if the blade looks like this it might be worth messing with:
2mx3n75.jpg


If it looks like this, don't waste your time:
dewalt-dw3577-general-purpose-circular-saw-blade.jpg



I think it's good advice:

kdogmcg said:
but instead use an appropriate known Steel. So that after hours and hours of filing and sanding you won't have a paperweight but instead an actual knife.
Click to expand...
 
FWIW as long as you're checking out NJSB's website look at 1084, it is less expensive and easier to heat treat than O-1. Check out the stickies for tons of info on this subject.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Large 20-60" saw mill blades may be some alloy similar to 15N20, but modern circular saw blades for 7-18" shop saws and hand held skill saws are not. The blades that don't have carbide teeth are mostly M2 or a similar HSS alloy, and the ones with carbide teeth are generally low carbon, high chromium alloy. They are designed for toughness, not hardness. If a blade is made from one, the annealing and HT will probably be poor, and the edge holding will be very low.

I had a bunch of saw blade steel analyzed many years back, and some came back with less than .10% carbon. It was basically 1008 with 12% chrome added. Other circular saw alloys have chrome and molybdenum in the mix ... but don't need or want much carbon.
Click to expand...

I live in the city where may be is the biggest industry for processing marble and granite in this part of Europe . And I am one hundred percent sure that the circular saw /with diamond/ for granite and marble are 15n20 steel . Sorry , I just read first post that he ask for small one saw . I am talk about big one saw for wood and marble ......
 
The large diamond concrete/rock saw blades I had analyzed were low carbon core with some chromium added, and diamond sintered rims. I even cut one up for fun and made a blade, doing a basic HT - it did not make a good knife. Edge was way too soft and wouldn't stay sharp.

It could be that in Macedonia, they are using large blades made of different steel than the 24" - 48" concrete saws I tested..
 
rcetroy said:
FWIW as long as you're checking out NJSB's website look at 1084, it is less expensive and easier to heat treat than O-1. Check out the stickies for tons of info on this subject.
Click to expand...

+1
If you plan to do a home heat-treat with forge and canola oil, start with 1084. You'll be wasting your money with O1, which needs to be held at its critical temperature for tens of minutes to realize its full potential. Yet you'll make a fantastic blade with 1084 using a simple backyard heat-treat for half the price.

(no opinion on saw blades)
 
I have made a fair number of paring knives, ulus and small kitchen utilities from table saw blades with carbide teeth (I was given a bunch of the same brand). They harden quite nicely, hold an edge and can be cut w/o annealing on the bandsaw. This is not true of all of them, but the ones I have act like 15n20. If anybody wants to play with a piece I'll send you one.
If you MUST use a piece of sawblade-do a test HT coupon and see what happens before you invest your time in an actual knife.
 
Thanks for all the info y'all! I'm a professional in my field(s) and am not afraid of learning and hard work - but there is so much to learn here! This forum and the participants are amazing resources. A BIG thanks to NC Biker - who PM'd me and insisted on sending me a box of 1084 to test out. Extraordinary generousity! Thank you!
 
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